[DISC][PLAYER] Midair exit rules

[Simon]

Well, if you insist:

• Skills that can never exit in any of their 1 or 2 possible groundedness states (faller),
  
• skills that can exit in one groundedness state but not in another, and both can physically happen; they appear to check explicitly for groundedness (ohnoer),
  
• skills that can always exit in all 1 or 2 of their possible groundedness states (builder, blocker).
  

It's at least 3 groups no matter how you frame it. Exiting in 12.11 doesn't merely depend on skill. It depends on skill and groundedness.

-- Simon

[IchoTolot]

I think there you are pulling groups apart for the sake of creating new groups to be honest. "Skills that can/cannot never exit in any of their 1 or 2 possible groundedness states" seems not like a good group class to me.

We can define a nearly endless number of groups if we want to.

Let me try to develop a definition:

- "A lemming can only exit if he has terrain under his feet" already covers everything except the swimmer, floater and glider special case.

We could even make it totally consistent:

- "A lemming can only exit if he has terrain under his feet or he is currently performing a permanent skill task"     (If I haven't missed a case )

This would cover the glider, floater and swimmer case.

[Simon]

A lemming can only exit if he has terrain under his feet or he is currently performing a permanent skill task

Excellent direction, thanks.

There are corner cases for near-death activities: Drowner can exit but splatter/burner cannot. Well, one can argue that the splatter/burner is already unconcious.

The case for the permanent abilities even has a flavorful argument: The permanent ability makes the corresponding dangerous/uninhabitable situation just as comfortable as walking on ground.

Let's see how well the rule holds. Shimmier is not permanent. Are we fine that the shimmer is un-exitable, but the climber/slider can exit? Do we lump the hoister with the climber, and the dangler with the slider, and have both exit?

-- Simon

[IchoTolot]

Well, one can argue that the splatter/burner is already unconcious.

I would argue that a splatter/burner is already dead and just plays out the fancy death animation.

Shimmier is not permanent. Are we fine that the shimmer is un-exitable, but the climber/slider can exit?

I would be fine with that, but I can see the shimmier being a skill that can be a bit closer to the permanent ones.

Do we lump the hoister with the climber, and the dangler with the slider, and have both exit?

For simplicity sake I would tend to yes.

[namida]

"A lemming can only exit if he has terrain under his feet or he is currently performing a permanent skill task"

Attached replay (Lemmings Plus III, Timid 11) has a setup where a digger exits in midair. To be fair, digger in general has weird midair behavior.

This setup can also be adjusted slightly - by removing bricks after the builder places them, and timing the unlock well - to have a builder exit in midair.

However, a slight rewording: "A lemming can exit if it is on the ground, or is performing an action where it is not subject or only partially subject to gravity." I think this catches all cases, though it's questionable how the Reacher / Jumper fit into this wording so applying the instinctive result there (ie: don't let them exit) would invalidate this wording, or at least fuzzy it up a bit.

[Simon]

not subject or only partially subject to gravity
questionable how the Reacher / Jumper fit into this wording

That's fine: Gravity merely accelerates downwards; gravity doesn't imply that affected things are already moving downwards. Thus, albeit without sleeping over it, your idea appears to catch the essence even for a non-exitable jumper/reacher.

This direction has converged really nicely. Question is whether the jumper should exit in general, as WillLem proposes.

-- Simon

[WillLem]

"A lemming can exit if it is on the ground, or is performing an action where it is not subject or only partially subject to gravity"

This seems like a good rule; it catches the floater, glider and swimmer, and also explains why a reacher and a jumper would be able to exit.

Both reacher and jumper are actions which a lemming is performing (hence my suggestion of "active" state) - it's absolutely feasible that a lemming could jump into a midair exit. Or, at the very least, it's as feasible as a lemming being able to float/glide into a midair exit. Therefore, keeping the behaviour maintains this consistency.

Personally, I would always expect a lemming to exit upon contact with an exit's trigger area, regardless of how they got there, and even more regardless of whether or not there is terrain beneath the exit's trigger. Of course, this is already not the case in most versions of Lemmings, so as a player I've adapted to the various other behaviours that the game presents.

Again, it ultimately comes down to preference (or, if you prefer, expectation); those who don't want the behaviour will find arguments against it, and those who want the behaviour will find arguments for it. What's needed is a clear rule which has everything covered, so it's good that this is the direction the conversation is going in.

It'll be interesting to see what prevails.

As far as I am aware, there are no levels yet requiring Shimmiers or Jumpers to exit while in that state

There is a level in Lemminas which requires a reacher to be able to exit. It's an easy enough fix if the decision is to disallow the behaviour though, and the solution will in fact be the same so replays won't break.



EDIT:

That's fine: Gravity merely accelerates downwards; gravity doesn't imply that affected things are already moving downwards. Thus, albeit without sleeping over it, your idea appears to catch the essence even for a non-exitable jumper/reacher.

This direction has converged really nicely.

I don't quite understand, please can you re-word this...?

[IchoTolot]

I still think an exiting reacher/jumper falls to much into the staight up direct-drop corner.

We should be careful with allowing additional midair exit situations as I think they can get confusing very very rapidly.

Even if the digger midair edge-case is not covered here I would still advice towards the stricter "A lemming can only exit if he has terrain under his feet or he is currently performing a permanent skill task" rule.

Maybe another rewording:

"A lemming can exit if it is on the ground, performing a permantent skill, or is performing an action where it is not subject to gravity."

This should exclude reachers/jumpers.

[Proxima]

For my part, I honestly think this is a good moment to stop and re-evaluate. The decision to allow floaters to exit was made for bad reasons, with no discussion, against the wishes of the majority. Sure, it's a couple of years on and changing it now would affect more content, but hardly very much more -- it's very much a niche rule.

The desire for simplicity and consistency dictates one of two solutions: either a lemming touching an exit trigger can always exit (WillLem's proposal), or a lemming can exit if its pin is both on an exit trigger and on terrain. Anything else would be an arbitrary dividing line that would require new players to remember exactly where the line is drawn. Why should permanent skills be on one side of the line and non-permanent skills on the other?

[IchoTolot]

I am not in favor of re-evaluations. I think the desire for stability is more desireable in this matter.

Although if I absolutely need to choose: "a lemming can exit if its pin is both on an exit trigger and on terrain" would be the obvious choice.

Direct drop needs to stay in a pit. You don't jump out of an airplane and enter your house without even a parachute.

Even back then there was a clear community vote in favor of ditching it and that decision was made with good reasons, with discussion and with the majority.

[namida]

The desire for simplicity and consistency dictates one of two solutions: either a lemming touching an exit trigger can always exit (WillLem's proposal), or a lemming can exit if its pin is both on an exit trigger and on terrain.

Swimmer can exit. I feel this makes sense. Generally speaking though, water acts more like terrain (except for the special case of overhead slopes of actual terrain) than like air to a swimmer, so this may be a justifiable exception.

The wording "a lemming can exit if its pin is both on an exit trigger and on terrain", also has a direct drop bug (via the same mechanism as DOS's one) - lemming falls through trigger area, is not on terrain, does not exit. Then, lemming hits terrain, becomes splatter, at which point its pin is on both an exit trigger and terrain. (To be fair, this was quoted from a sentence, not put forward as an exact rule, so it can be taken that "and splatters / etc cannot exit" is implied by the context, just not the exact rule that excludes them.)

I think the simplest resolution based on this idea is, a lemming can exit if:
- Its pin pixel is on an exit trigger area
- Its pin pixel is on solid terrain; or it is a swimmer and its pin pixel is on water
- It is in a state from which it can transition to another state, rather than only to "no longer exists"
- Special edge case: Drowner cannot exit

The drowner edge case is necessary for the situation where a pixel is all 3 of exit trigger, water trigger, and solid terrain. This arises from that Drowner itself would usually fail the 3rd condition, but has its own edge case where it can be saved by assigning a Swimmer.

To be clear, this is just contribution to the overall proposal, and not a "this change is happening" decision.

[mantha16]

personally I'm with willlem in that any active lemming should be able to exit I mean they are considered as 'athletes' what athlete cannot exit an exit lol

[WillLem]

You don't jump out of an airplane and enter your house without even a parachute.

Precisely why Floaters (and Gliders) can exit. This should definitely not change, there are far too many levels that would break as a result.

Even beyond level breakage, the fact that exits can exist in midair means that there needs to be more options for allowing lemmings to exit.

If the "pin on terrain" rule gets implemented, the only way to access a midair exit will be to build/platform/stack to its trigger. At the moment, there is also the option to float/glide/jump into it as well - all of which are reasonable to expect in the context of a video game.

It seems to me that since a Floater is a lemming in a slowed-down state, they have "time" to interact with the exit, whereas a faller simply falls past it. This makes sense, and also powers-up the Floater - a desirable game feature, IMHO.

Meanwhile, Jumpers are actively moving towards the exit trigger, rather than passively falling past it. Arguably, it's an even more deliberate action than walking into it!

That's why I'm strongly in favour of leaving things as they are; NeoLemmix would become a weaker game if these behaviours were to be removed.

More options is better!!!



Incidentally, Floaters can exit in midair on both SuperLemmini and Amiga. The following screenshot shows this on Amiga:

[IchoTolot]

More options is better!!!

That isn't always the case. I see this false assumption so often! More options does not automatically mean better and can actually lead to a severe loss in quality.

While I am on your side in keeping the current floater and glider mechanic due to stability I still would consider jumper and reacher more a direct drop case and that it should be removed.

[mantha16]

i kind of think if you allow it for gliders and floaters then you have to allow it for jumpers etc too.  I don't see that it negatively affects game play just gives designers another tool.