[NeoLemmix] Which Levels Are Possible in Under 1 Minute, With Skillset Editing

[WillLem]

The premise of this challenge is to find out which levels can be solved in under 1 minute, with editing of the skillset allowed. Results show which levels are possible (or not), and also the required skillsets to make them possible.

The rules are:

• The level must be solved in under 1 minute IGT (in-game time)
• The level must be solved according to its original release rate and save requirement
• Editing of the skillset is allowed - this includes adding and removing skills where necessary, up to a maximum of 10 skill types (including new skills)*

Results should be reported as either "Possible", "Possible [E]" (where editing of the skillset is required) or "Impossible", also noting the skills used, e.g.

Rank	#	Level	Sub-1 Minute	Skills Used
Fun	1	Just Dig!	Possible	1 digger

*To clarify - any skills can be added to any level, regardless of the original skill set. So, "classic 8" levels can have NL skills added to them; it makes sense to allow this, since it's a NeoLemmix-based challenge.

It may also occasionally be worth removing skills from the original skillset in order to make room for new ones, if a solution requires it.

[Minim]

Hi, WillLem.

It looks like you're working with Amiga Lemmings for this challenge, rather than the highly accessible Redux. Is that Amiga pack still around on the forums? I can't find it anywhere.

Editing of the skillset is allowed - this includes adding and removing skills where necessary, up to a maximum of 10 skill types

Does this mean we can add non-original skills (Like Walker, Jumper etc) or do you have to include those based on the original skillset? Also, please clarify on why we should remove skills? I just don't see an advantage to it. I presume we're not allowed to edit terrain placements either.

I have a full list of fastest record times for Redux anyway, so I'd rather work on those that are impossible in under 1 minute, which as we know, is not all 160 levels. Also, with NeoLemmix taking out all the glitches, this challenge is in my opinion less interesting than the DOS equivalent.

[Proxima]

Also, please clarify on why we should remove skills? I just don't see an advantage to it.

I suggested specifying this in the rules just in case it ever comes up. A level can have at most 10 skill types, so it could possibly be advantageous to remove one skill type so as to make room for another.

I have a full list of fastest record times for Redux anyway, so I'd rather work on those that are impossible in under 1 minute, which as we know, is not all 160 levels.

I agree; for levels that are already possible in under a minute, this is just reporting the minimum-skills results again. My suggestion for this challenge would be: find the fewest additional skills to make a level solvable in under a minute. For instance, if a level provides 25 climbers and 25 builders and nothing else, and you have a solution with 8 builders and 1 basher that solves in under a minute, the result is "1" (the 1 basher is extra).

Results could be presented in table format, as in the Minimum skills challenge. But this is WillLem's topic so I won't insist on it.

[WillLem]

It looks like you're working with Amiga Lemmings for this challenge, rather than the highly accessible Redux.

Not so much: Amiga Lemmings is now defunct in lieu of the upcoming "NL official" conversions; I see no reason to maintain 2 packs of the same levels when it's much better to collaborate with Proxima and make the most ideal version we can

Redux can of course be done for this challenge as well! As has become the recent tradition for NL challenges, it's probably worth starting with Redux anyway.

Does this mean we can add non-original skills (Like Walker, Jumper etc)

Yes, and in fact skills can be removed from the original set to make room for others not in that set (if necessary). I'll try to make this as clear as possible in the OP.

Also, with NeoLemmix taking out all the glitches, this challenge is in my opinion less interesting than the DOS equivalent.

I'm not sure why you've even said this, to be frank. This is a NeoLemmix challenge; it's interesting because it's being played within the perameters of NeoLemmix as a platform. It is not without its own little quirks and features which make it great for challenges.

My suggestion for this challenge would be: find the fewest additional skills to make a level solvable in under a minute. For instance, if a level provides 25 climbers and 25 builders and nothing else, and you have a solution with 8 builders and 1 basher that solves in under a minute, the result is "1" (the 1 basher is extra).

Agreed, but the {full skillset used} should still be reported.

Results could be presented in table format

Absolutely, I'll make a table for this soonish

[Minim]

Also, with NeoLemmix taking out all the glitches, this challenge is in my opinion less interesting than the DOS equivalent.

I'm not sure why you've even said this, to be frank. This is a NeoLemmix challenge; it's interesting because it's being played within the perameters of NeoLemmix as a platform. It is not without its own little quirks and features which make it great for challenges.

In my head I was thinking about all the glitches that made some of the DOS levels successful under the one-minute challenge, such as the nuke glitch (Ice Station Lemming), steel glitch (And then, there were four) and sliding glitch (Worra Lorra Lemmings & Pillars of Hercules). Sorry that I've worded it like I'm disregarding your challenge just because it's on a different engine. I will get onto it at some point.

[WillLem]

Sorry that I've worded it like I'm disregarding your challenge just because it's on a different engine. I will get onto it at some point.

No worries, thanks for elaborating on what you meant

The absence of glitches which previously made sub-1 minute solutions possible on other platforms is exactly the reason this challenge is interesting in NeoLemmix; it now comes down to using the skills and the maps to make it possible.

Anyways, I look forward to running this challenge with you at some point!

[Minim]

Right. I've created and released the 1-minute pack for Redux! It took longer than expected thanks to the unreliable QuickMod (Or maybe I'm just using it incorrectly) forcing me to edit all the levels. But they're here now. The levels which are impossible under 1-minute are written below. Enjoy!

Gentle: 17, 23, 24, 25, 28 & 29.
Quirky: 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 14, 17, 18, 19, 22, 23, 25, 26, 27, 29 & 32.
Zany: 1, 2, 4, 8, 9, 13-19, 21, 22, 23, 25, 27, 28, 29, 31 & 32.
Manic: 3, 8-11, 13, 15, 16, 18-21, 24, 27, 28, 30 & 32.
Lunatic: 2, 3, 5, 7-17, 19-22, 28, 29, 30 & 32.

[Minim]

So, I have tried and tested this challenge a few times on long levels. Here's my verdict:

The main skill involved in speeding up long levels is the jumper. The speed the jumper gains is amazing, however, a jumper only counts for one lemming, not everybody. Also, a jumper hits the ceiling very frequently, wasting a skill. So to make up for the one lemming closing in on the exit, you need cloners; and to an extent, falling stoners and bombers/miners for quick terrain creation/removal respectively. If the pack cannot simply walk through the hero's route to the exit in time, for example in "The Steel Mines of Kessel" and "Save Me", you'll need to click the cloner x number of times to meet the requirement. Some might say the cloner creates embarrassingly high-numbered results that one would constantly look to improve. "The race against clichés" is hands down the worst example. I needed over 100 extra skills (so far) to navigate the fluctuating terrain quickly enough to get them home in a single minute. I did find "Catch More Floaters" quite fun because it had a splat start and a platform that could be reached with a few skills, but otherwise if we're planning to add skills, it's pretty much going to involve the four skills mentioned above.

I have a list of results for some levels, but no more than that. I'm sorry, but I can't continue given the reasoning above. I hope everything I've written is clear. Thanks.

Spoiler

Level:    1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23  24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32
Gentle:   0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0 48  0  0  0  0  0  6  11 48  0  0  3  2  0  0  0
Quirky:   0  0 57 58 31  0  7  0  1 45  0  0  0 54  0  0 40 51  4  0  0 81  ?   0  ?  ?  ?  0  ?  0  0  ?
Zany:     ?  ?  0  ?  0  0  0  ?  ?  0  0  0  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  0  ?  ?  ?   0  ?  0  ?  ?  ?  0  ?  ?
Manic:    0  0  ?  0  0  0  0  ?  ?  ?  ?  0  ?  0  ?  ?  0  ?  ?  ?  ?  0  0 109  0  0  ?  ?  0  ?  0  ?
Lunatic:  0  ?  ?  0  ?  0  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  0  ?  ?  ?  ?  0   0  0  0  0  ? 87  ?  0  ?

Gentle 17: 18 jumpers, 30 cloners
Gentle 24: 11 cloners
Gentle 28: 1 stoner, 1 glider, 1 jumper