Level Design Contest #22 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[ericderkovits]

ok solved Niesch's Rule 1 version 2 level Take a Hike. Still not too difficult of a level.

Also I spent a lot of time on Icho's Rule 1 level as I wanted to be able to finish all the traditional levels (Rule 1) since I am a traditionalist when it comes to lemmings. Wow very difficult level(at least for me). but I managed to solve it.

Spoiler

The timing of the climbers so they can dig, block and build close together up to the top trapped lemming on the left and right was the trickiest part.

Anyways I now finished all The rule 1 levels. The only one not totally sure about is crane's level as he stated the backroute of his High Rise Highjinks doesn't seem to be able to be fixed, so I don't know his intended solution.

anyways here are the 2 final levels  replays that needed to be solved for Rule 1.

I still like Kaywhyn's level tricks the best I think in the Rule 1 set, even though it's a small level. Probably my favorite music in Rule 1 was Flopsy's "The cooler side of Hell"

And definitely the easiest level in Rule 1 was Silken Healer's Building Bridges. This level probably is on par with the middle to late Fun rank levels of the Original lemmings.

[IchoTolot]

Your solution for "Down The Gutter" is intended, eric. Great job!

[Armani]

@ericderkovits Well done! That's 100% intended



And I resolved all the updated levels

High Rise Hijinks : Again two replays attached. First one is slight variation of my previous backroute and second one is completely new solution. I'm not sure if this is intended or not.
Immortal : Now I spared only one builder. I think we are getting closer to the intended solution(hopefully )
Love-Hate Triangle : This seems promising I used every single skill this time

[kaywhyn]

@eric Nice job with Icho's R1 level As you know, I pretested his contest levels. All of them are difficult in their own ways, although I agree with Armani's assessment that his R1 was probably the hardest of his levels in this contest, even though his R2 and R3 both each took me longer. Regarding your solution, you totally could had had both a climber and a floater to spare

Spoiler

Simply make the digger that was a climber the blocker on the right side instead.

Compare to my solution where I was less efficient and ended up using all skills but I did what I told you in the spoiler above.

I still like Kaywhyn's level tricks the best I think in the Rule 1 set, even though it's a small level.

Glad you liked my R1 level! Your R1 was nice as well, even though it gave me problems but only because I kept overthinking it

And definitely the easiest level in Rule 1 was Silken Healer's Building Bridges. This level probably is on par with the middle to late Fun rank levels of the Original lemmings.

Definitely an easy level. I thought The Tomato Watcher's level was very easy as well. The hardest R1 levels for me is either Crane's or Icho's, the former only because I can't solve it the intended way and can only solve with a backroute.

@Armani Finally, your solution to my R3 is intended. Great job! It might have taken 9 versions, but it's finally completely patched up It should now be the hardest of my contest levels, with my R1 possibly even more or a close second for hardest.

On the flip side, your R2 is the only level I can't solve. So, after not being able to solve it after 2 videos, I will hopefully get it solved off-camera. And I've already spent at least 2 hours off-camera with it and still no luck I know you posted hints, but I dare not peek at them, as I like to figure it out for myself

I've also had an attempt at your R3 on camera, but I haven't been able to solve that one yet. I'm going to try and see if I can solve the other R3 levels first before I come back to yours

[ericderkovits]

ok altered my replay for Icho's "Down the Gutter" to Save both a climber and a floater(as Kaywhyn mentioned)

I know you don't like Talismans either.

[Armani]

@kaywhyn
Yep, it's was a long journey but we finally made it. Now let's hope Icho won't backroute your R3 again

Since last LDC(CONTEST#21), I set some rules on my self when designing contest levels. For rule1, I try to design traditional-type of level.(I used brick tileset last time and dirt this time) Also, I found out that my rule1 level is always the first level of the entire pack, so I tend to make it not so difficult. And for rule2, I've made levels to showcase some new(at least for me) tricks, which will be helpful when you play my future pack. So usually these levels are quite hard at first, but will be simple when you realize the tricks I want to teach.(my level 'Horent Flight' from the last contest is an example; after you realize the shimmier-stoner trick, the level is nothing) Finally for rule3, I've deliberately tried to design tricky levels without advanced or fancy tricks.

So... good luck with the remaining levels. I believe you'll make it.

[kaywhyn]

@kaywhyn
Yep, it's was a long journey but we finally made it. Now let's hope Icho won't backroute your R3 again

Or anyone for that matter if they happen to play my R3 It was getting frustrating for some time, but let's just say that I took baby steps in fixing up my R3. With each subsequent update, I pretty much fixed one backroute at a time, but while doing so I neglected to fix a backroute in another area. This I consider ok when first starting out, especially since keep in mind that these three contest levels of mine are my very first lemmings levels I have ever made. I didn't think I was capable of designing a lemmings level, let alone ones that are contest worthy, but I apparently have underestimated myself

Since last LDC(CONTEST#21), I set some rules on my self when designing contest levels. For rule1, I try to design traditional-type of level.(I used brick tileset last time and dirt this time) Also, I found out that my rule1 level is always the first level of the entire pack, so I tend to make it not so difficult. And for rule2, I've made levels to showcase some new(at least for me) tricks, which will be helpful when you play my future pack. So usually these levels are quite hard at first, but will be simple when you realize the tricks I want to teach.(my level 'Horent Flight' from the last contest is an example; after you realize the shimmier-stoner trick, the level is nothing) Finally for rule3, I've deliberately tried to design tricky levels without advanced or fancy tricks.

Nice insightful info into your general contest design. It's nice to set guidelines for oneself so that you know exactly what you're trying to aim for. If you must know, for my R1 there were two tricks in there that I knew I wanted to make a level out of, and so that's how my R1 happened. Of course, as you saw, I threw in a third one on top of that for good measure In addition, I knew I wanted it to be a bubble level, since that tileset is one of my favorites. For all my contest levels, though, the general plan was pretty much start putting things together and hope that a great level comes out of them. This was especially true for both my R2 and R3. For my R3, I originally wanted to use the Renaissance tileset and use one-time traps, but I saw that the tileset doesn't have one-time traps. However, while playing your R2, I totally forgot about the spikes which are. Even then, what I had in mind wasn't going to work. So ultimately, I went with the brick tileset, which is another favorite of mine from ONML. Before this, I think I wanted to do it in the wasteland tileset since it does have the mines as one-time traps, but I couldn't really think of a way to make an interesting level out of this. I might be able to in the future, but for the time being, the brick one is what you see for this contest

Out of my 3 entries, I had a very hard time coming up with a level title for my R3. One of the titles was going to be very similar to what you went with for your R3, except I couldn't think of anything that goes well with "the good, the bad" Even the title I ultimately went with I really don't like either, but I can't really think of anything better for it. I guess in a way it does kind of resemble a triage in the form of a triangle if you noticed what I did with the structure at the bottom.

So... good luck with the remaining levels. I believe you'll make it.

Thanks for the encouragement! I hope I can solve your R2 and R3 too. I'm probably just overthinking your R2, but then again I understand it's supposed to be hard. I'll keep in mind with what you said above with your general process of making R2 levels with a trick that once discovered then the rest is easy and see if that will help.

I think what I will do is record one more attempt at your R3 and if I can't solve it, then again same story as R2 in that I will try and solve it off-camera. Even then, your R3 is the only level in that group I have left to solve, and I've only recorded one video attempting it so far. Because of this, I will make an exception to the 20-25 minutes max rule I allow myself before moving on to the next contest level if I can't solve it in that timeframe. Makes sense, because the only levels I have left to solve in this contest are your R2 and R3, so therefore I can afford to record a much longer attempt on camera, even if it takes upwards close to an hour or so.

After this, I will upload the remaining videos. I will simply upload my success for your R2 at a later time. Also, I didn't want the fact that I couldn't solve your R2 to delay my recordings of solving the R3 levels. So, what's going to happen is that I will upload the 4 parts of the R2 levels, followed by the 3 parts of the R3 levels, and then I simply upload part 5 of the R2 levels whenever I solve your R2. Similarly for uploading part 4 of the R3 levels at a later time if it ever gets to that.

I hope you enjoyed my contest levels as well. Thanks for playing and the replays! Again, I have definitely learned a lot in regards to level making/level fixing.

[Crane]

Armani... second solution is intended.  Well done!

[ericderkovits]

ok, solved version 18 of High Rise Hijinks Rule 1 in the editor. Used all the skills. Hopefully this one is good.  I think the other ones are sealed now.

[Crane]

And that is the intended solution.  Well done.

(FINALLY!)

I just hope it's not too obvious now... we'll see how long it takes IchoTolot to find it.

[ericderkovits]

Great. Now that my solution to your High Rise Hijinks is intended(can no longer be backrouted like before), I hopefully can now say I finished all the Rule 1 levels as intended. Unless others update their levels. Wow though 18 versions to get it right.

[kaywhyn]

I've looked at all of the R2 and R3 levels, so I'm back with more replays attached and LP videos to all the levels except for Armani's R2 and R3, as I still need more time to solve them. However, I wasn't going to delay the uploading of my LP videos due to them, as I wanted to see the rest of the levels. So, I will upload Part 5 of the R2 levels and Part 4 of the R3 levels once I'm able to solve both of his levels off-camera.

My replays also include solutions to Icho's R2 and R3 levels. As you all know, I pretested them, so you may compare my solutions to them. However, once again, I urge you to give them both a try and attempt to solve them They're both difficult, but I'm sure you lot can handle them. I really like his R3 the best out of his contest levels. As for the video LPs, I haven't shown my solution to Icho's R2, but I will do that in the next video I upload once I solve Armani's R2. In the meantime, there's the replay file you can use to see it

Overall, for some reason I felt the R3 levels were easier than the R2 ones. Probably because I solved the R3 ones somewhat faster. Not to mention there's one less R3 level I played than R2 since I didn't need to play either Icho's (I pretested) or my own Also, though the R1 levels only use the classic 8 skills, they were definitely some of the best contest levels I've seen. I say the overall difficulty of the R1's were in the middle, so in between R3 and R2, with the R2 the hardest ones IMO. I think there's universal consensus that R2 was the most difficult to work with when designing for the rule, but most of them turned out to be difficult. Armani's R2 is the hardest for me, as that is the one that I have not yet managed to solve while the rest I have.

Links to Rule 2 LP videos:

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7CDZ8LMZ5c (No point in uploading this one, as both levels I attempt here are no solves, but I'm doing it anyway just for completeness This video would be of interest to just Armani and eric, although you all are certainly still more than welcome to watch this one

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYOA4M_Sd5M

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sJlqTypv1A

Part 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJlaAav8-vE


Links to R3 LP Videos:

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H9DoLsNTwk

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVyjNlPCoK4

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk8beyqi2kA


Feedback on R2 and R3 levels

Crane

Immortal R3V10 - Nice level. I'm sure this isn't intended, since I do have plenty of skills leftover, so unfortunately I think this might still require some fixing

Dullstar

The Chamber of Mummies R3V2 - This one was a bit tricky and difficult. Still, nice puzzle. Seems to be a bit open-ended, but I'm not sure if my solution is acceptable though, given the skills I have leftover.

ericderkovits

All for 4 and 4 for All R2V2 - Nice level that was quite challenging. I do have some skills leftover, but hopefully this is acceptable?

Drown Those Zombies R3V3 - Wow, I really like this one! Nice job Of your 3 contest levels, your R3 was my favorite. It was a bit difficult, but it's not too hard and not too trivial. Great solution.

Flopsy

Let's Play Some Games R2V2 - Difficult one. In particular, the hardest was getting one of the lemmings at the bottom to the top. Not sure if this is acceptable. Nice tileset, although I did confuse some things for solid when they're actually background. Of course, I could use CPM, but I rather not take the easy way out and figure things out as I go. I like this challenge/puzzle of doing so.

Random acts of nastiness R3V1 This is by far my favorite one of your 3 contest levels. It's just the right difficulty and challenge, so I'm honestly surprised that Nessy couldn't solve this. Not too hard but not easy either. Very nice design/tileset and puzzle. Once again, there were some things I confused for solid when they're actually background. In particular, some stuff at the bottom, such as the post before the bomb traps. Again, it's all about playing more levels in the tileset and familiarizing oneself with them. I'm definitely hyped up about the eventual release of GGF now

Proxima

All Your Bees Are Belong To Us R2V1 - Nice level, especially with the tileset mixing of both the space and bee tilesets. I ended up struggling with this level for a good 15-20 minutes. You could make the bee traps more noticeable, though I got taken by surprise with them. At the same time, it is a really short level, so it's not a big deal.

rtw

Purple Pit of Peril R2V1 - Nice level. A bit dull and annoying for my taste, but that's just my personal dislike for levels where you have to repeatedly spam the same skill(s) over and over. It's an easy one, though, so thanks for that

Crazy Eights R3V1 - This one was definitely the hardest of your 3 contest levels. I solved this one the slowest. This is most definitely a backroute, since in my solution I don't even need to collect the walker pickups, but I did so anyway

WillLem

Lemminas im Kraftwerk R2V1 This is a really nicely designed level! A bit long for my taste, but I was fortunately able to eventually solve it, even though I spent nearly an hour. Releasing the Lemminas stuck in between the two force fields was certainly the trickiest, especially when you realize that it's necessary to fence from below due to the button at the top. Also racing to save the neutral Lemmina from dying to the trap at the beginning. That was a nice touch and puzzle element, though. Here, the skillset may look extremely generous, but don't be fooled. The stackers and walkers ran out surprisingly fast. I kept having to readjust some skills due to unnecessarily wasting stackers where I shouldn't.

@Armani - I will upload the final parts of the R2 and R3 videos at a later time once I'm able to solve both of your levels. I think I'm quite close with your R3 now that I was able to get farther in Part 3 than I did in the Part 1 video.

As for my levels, I will show off the intended solutions to them once I can solve both of Armani's R2 and R3 and near the end of the playing phase. Sorry for the disappointment

[ericderkovits]

@ Kaywhyn

Your solution to my Rule 2 is an acceptable variant as even Armani had a few skills left. I'm leaving this one open-ended as I consider it the easiest of the 3 contest levels, even though you thought
it was challenging. Actually I didn't spend to much time on creating this level to get an exact solution so I'm fine with your solution.

[kaywhyn]

@eric thanks for commenting on my solutions to both your R2 and R3 on my videos. Ok, great to know they're both deemed acceptable. Of your 3 contest entries, your R3 was my favorite one. Nicely done

[Crane]

Too many backroutes in my overcomplicated levels.  I'm forgetting what I need to do now.