Level Design Contest #22 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[Crane]

My solutions to Interception and The Cooler Side of Hell.

AND I CAN'T STOP YOUR SCREWY BACKROUTE.  YOU'LL JUST KEEP ADJUSTING THE POSITION OF THE DIGGER AND BUILDER.  FINE.  YOU WIN.

[Armani]

@kaywhyn
The level is getting more and more difficult
Anyway here's my solution. I used every skill this time.

[kaywhyn]

@Armani Even though you used all skills (there's also one skill that you used that you could had spared in your solution), it's still a backroute. However, the start is about 98% intended. There's a few things after that that's still unintended. Even though the only change is steel was added, this should be the change that finally enforces the solution I had in mind, including the missing 2% at the start So I guess in a way the level's difficult but at the same time all the changes after the start kind of easily lead to the solution. Even then, I feel the level's still hard enough as is. You even stated that the level's getting quite difficult, which was what I wanted, since I still feel it's accurate to say that my R3 is the hardest of all my contest entries

Anyway, try V7 and let me know what you come up with this time. Thanks again for playing and helping me catch all these backroutes

[Crane]

i can't apologise enough for my outbursts.  I'm just so frustrated that I can't get the level right and the same backroute keeps cropping up with some minor adjustments.  I promise it's no fault of the players and testers... they're just doing what they do best.

[ericderkovits]

Ok solved Dullstar's version 2 Interception. Used all skills. hope it's a good solution.

replay attached.

[joshescue18]

Flopsy's Rule 1 level solved

Replay attached.

[ericderkovits]

Version 12 of High Rise Hijinks still not fixed.

Here are 2 different but similiar backroutes.


Really think a new rule 1 level should be submitted as submitting this many attempts is just too many.

By now I think you could have had a better Rule 1 level already made.

Or as Icho mentioned on Discord embrace the backroute and integrate parts of it.

[IchoTolot]

Ok, it seems like I need to crackdown on those backgrounds in R1 here as apparently people still used subtle backgrounds that I overlooked when assesing the levels in the first place.

And now other people are adding new backgrounds just becaused I missed one!

It would also be unfair to people who I told to remove backgrounds because those were not present in "traditional" lemmings if I would do nothing here.

So please could the following 2 levels be updated again with removed backgrounds:

- Crane's "High Rise Hijinks"
- Flopsy's "The Cooler Side of Hell"

Again it was a mistake by me in the first place not seeing them and preventing this in the first place.

[Crane]

Yet traditional levels don't have custom music, arrow key select and instant bombers either - where's the line drawn?

[IchoTolot]

Yet traditional levels don't have custom music, arrow key select and instant bombers either - where's the line drawn?

Where I declared it in the ruleset and in my pm to you regarding your initial submission's background.

[Crane]

Fine, okay.  But there's too many levels that have bent the rules a bit, like having one-way arrows that don't belong to the same tileset that's used in the rest of the level.  I guess i'm just frustrated on every level imaginable.

I want to say we have different values and think differently, but where have you had to embrace a backroute and sacrifice an intended solution almost completely?

[IchoTolot]

..., but where have you had to embrace a backroute and sacrifice an intended solution almost completely?

Quite often. A bunch of levels in my packs were adjusted to adopt part of the backroutes or change up the intended solution.

Prime examples:

- "Rise Over Run" in United - intended solution was changed in large parts

- "Face Down And Pushing Through" in Reunion - backroute was made into the intended solution

- "Kiwi Knight's Keep" in United - intended solution was changed completely into something different

Believe me there are many more and I do this regularly when an intended solution cannot be enforced without allowing backroutes.

[Crane]

Well, I've solved "Warmth" and "Building Bridges" (100% solution)

[Dullstar]

I think there's merits to both embracing a backroute and for patching them, depending on what the backroute is and what the intended solution was.

If you haven't already, I'm not aware of any rules banning asking for help debackrouting the level (i.e. post your intended solution replay and have someone else take a look and see what they can do to fix the backroutes) - if there is a rule against it, there's definitely precedent for letting it slide, as I've done it before publicly. Unfortunately, R1 blocks a lot of tools you can use to patch such backroutes, but do keep in mind you can always release a new version after the contest that uses those features.



On another topic, I don't see anything wrong with allowing the backgrounds. They weren't present in the original game, sure. But they don't affect gameplay, and there's backgrounds that are designed to fit in with the original sets included by default. Personally, I think it's a bit pedantic to disallow them.

[ericderkovits]

ok, I solved Armani's rule 2 level The Day after Christmas

I"m almost positive this is a backroute though, since I didn't even use the shimmier or glider pickup skill. And just used 2 of the cloners to satisfy the save requirement.