Level Design Contest #22 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[Armani]

I heard that one of my level is giving problem to someone, so I decided to give some hints for it for those who want. I'm not that good at giving hints so let me know if this is not enough, or if you want hints for other levels too.

The Day After Chritsmas

minor hints

- Sometimes, it's better to not push the button even if you can at no cost.
- You cannot let a lemming die by single trap. You must save everyone except for stoner sacrifice.
- You are given two cloners. One is for cloning stacker and another is for fencer.

a little bit more major hints

- Actually, the tiny gap at the bottom left of the level is a little hint I gave you. It forces you to use certain skill that you wouldn't necessarily do at this point if the gap is not there.
- You know that a lemming will fall and turn around if he jump into a terrain in front of him. And the stoner is also a terrain.

[Crane]

Sorry for all my edits - when I uploaded V5 of Immortal, I realised it was faulty, so I took it down again before anyone downloaded it (at least I think I did), and hopefully fixed it before uploading again.  It should be fine now.

[kaywhyn]

@Armani That's still a huge backroute to my R3. It's time to bring in the big guns. I have reduced the starting skillset even more by making a bunch of the skills pickups. This huge change from V3 to V4 is hopefully now enough to stop all your horrendous backrouting. There were some where I considered not making pickups, but I'm not taking any chances here less it causes backroutes to show up again. My hope is that my R3 is now the hard level it's supposed to be. I'm sure it's still not going to be a problem for someone like you, though.

[Dullstar]

I haven't looked through the replays yet, but based on the posts I know for sure Interception has a backroute in it.

[Gronkling]

ok, Solved Gronkling's Iron-Age Forge

This one was tricky. Also used all skills. Hopefully not a backroute.

Yes, this is exactly the correct solution

[kaywhyn]

@Icho Oops, I uploaded the wrong V4 of my R3. I have uploaded the correct level map in the update topic that's intended to be my V4. Please remove the one that's in the zip and replace with the one in the update topic. Sorry for the confusion, everyone!

[ericderkovits]

ok, again solved Cranes High Rise Hijinks. (Including Talisman)

Unfornately, Increasing the Release Rate from 90 to 95 didn't block the previous solution as I still pretty much did the same thing. Thus still is a backroute.

replay attached.

[Dullstar]

Looking through the topic, I found 3 replays for Interception; all three are different backroutes.

I found 2 replays for Chamber of Mummies; both are unintended, but they do at least seem interesting, if a bit easier than what I intended. I haven't decided if I'm going to patch these or leave it open ended yet.

[ericderkovits]

ok, Solved Your Level Kaywhyn. Even though it's a small level, I really liked your several little tricks in this level. I think probably my favorite level of Rule 1.

Of course before I solved the level had to do different things with the destructive skills and climber timings.

Here are the tricks:

Spoiler

1) After using a digger to get into bubble with Oww's had to use a blocker to stop him. (also had to be a digger there not a basher or miner, since those are needed elsewhere)
seen this digger blocker trick many times in other packs (IE: LOA hardcore 18(chopped in half) after using a digger then used a blocker to cancel him.
Also seen many times in Icho's reunion levels. So by seeing this trick I new I had to use a blocker to stop him. (Nice trick Kaywhyn)

2) Then had to backwards mine on bubble left of hatch so climbers can up there. (used this backward miner trick a few times also in LOA (ie Hardcore 26)) Also another nice trick.

3) Then sent a climber left to upper area. After mining down right then bashed right through long horrizontal area, had to send the other 2 climber close together after a few strokes of the bashing. climbers had to be timed at right moment (another nice trick)

4) Then with basher dig him down in middle of vertical bubble(in the middle) and by the time the other 2 sent climbers get there they can drop to the right of digger without splatting.

5) Then with 1st climber who gets to middle bar dig him so he will leave a non climbable spot on edge so no other climbers can go right and exit (used this trick in LOA 28 The Puzzle
where I had to use a digger to make a wall non-climbable). And with other climber use a blocker so he will face left. (nice trick) seen this blocker turning a digger around for example in United's Pacificm 34 (The order of U-Turns).

6) And finally after the lemming gets to gap right of trapped lemmings build him. And finally bash right with a lemming in trapped crowd after those climbers head right.
   And it can't be a climber who bashes left otherwise the 2 climbers will just go left (nice trick)

NOTE: I finished with 1 second left. I know some people don't like timers, but being a traditionalist I like them.

Anyways here is my replay

[kaywhyn]

@eric And, that's finally intended. Nice job!

Spoiler

You did indeed get the three main tricks I intended in the solution: cancelling a digger with a blocker, backwards mining to make a wall climbable, and turning a digger with a blocker. The second trick is not seen a lot, but I just knew I had to make a level that uses the trick. I think these three tricks all in one level is what makes the level hard, especially the second one. Also, if you don't use these tricks, you'll always end up short on skills.

As for the timer, it is tight, but it doesn't have to be. It's very possible to finish with around 20 seconds or so remaining. Normally I assign a climber almost instantly after I use a lemming to backwards mine. Also, you could interrupt the digger with a blocker after he has dug low enough so that everyone is contained in the brown bubble wall and so they don't have as much space to walk around in. This is what would had saved you more time. And yes, as long as you assign the next two climbers after you start bashing the top that's pretty much guaranteed to be about the right time to send them out almost every time. You can also use the far right pillar to stop the climbers going out the right side of the level, but of course your solution wouldn't work in this case, since you would run out of time.

What would you say about the difficulty of my R1? Did you think it was hard now that it's finally been properly patched up? If you think it was hard, then as mentioned before you're not the first one to tell me it's hard, as several people before you have told me that. Also, I think only one other person, Armani, has managed to solve it so far, and so you're pretty much the second person to have sent me a replay of R1, with the intended solution.

Nice job with steamrolling all the R1 levels! I think Icho's is the only R1 you have left to solve? I can tell you that it is hard, as I pretested all of his contest levels, but since you managed to solve my R1, then it should be a bit easier for you, since it uses something similar to my level. Since you're also a traditionalist, I knew right away that you would focus on the R1 levels and do all you can to solve them.   

[ericderkovits]

hi Kaywhyn. I think it's hard if you don't know these tricks. But because I've seen many tricks now or even used them in LOA, for me I say medium. That's what seeing many packs replays tricks do
And Like I said without seeing many tricks like these I wouldn't have even been able to beat Artlems or LOA.

And I solved every Rule 1 except Icho's. I already know that one would be just too hard for me, although havent really tried. Icho tends to make very difficult levels(just like in United).

Also I still backrouted cranes so waiting for an update again from him (he'll have to go to Version 8) since I backrouted his Version 7 the same as Version 6. His Increasing the Release Rate
made it more difficult but I still managed the same backroute.

[kaywhyn]

hi Kaywhyn. I think it's hard if you don't know these tricks. But because I've seen many tricks now or even used them in LOA, for me I say medium. That's what seeing many packs replays tricks do
And Like I said without seeing many tricks like these I wouldn't have even been able to beat Artlems or LOA.

That's a fairly accurate assessment. Indeed, the general consensus so far seems to be that my R1 is quite hard, although I should wait for more feedback on it and on my other two levels as well. Even then, I still think from easiest to hardest it's my R2, then R1, then R3. Although maybe R3 is only slightly harder than R1.

And I solved every Rule 1 except Icho's. I already know that one would be just too hard for me, although havent really tried. Icho tends to make very difficult levels(just like in United).

It's definitely a hard level, and I also struggled with it, although in the end I solved it much faster than both his R2 and R3. Almost similar to mine in size, small, but still deceptively hard. Even then, he's made some easy levels too From my pre-testing, though, I say all 3 were hard, although I think his R3 is the easiest even though it took me a while.

In the end, I do not blame you if you don't want to attempt the R2 and R3 levels, especially mine. I won't be offended in any way. R2 was a really hard rule to work with, although I struggled far more with making my R3, even though it's easier to work with than R2. I think for the time being both my R1 and R2 are fully backroute patched (who knows, they still might be backroutable), while it still remains to be seen with my R3. Hopefully V4 will be the final version of my R3, but we'll see.

[Armani]

again solved updated levels.

My previous backroute to High Rise Hijinks still works on V5 and I found completely different solution to it too. So I attached both two.

I think this is better than before but I have some leftover skills on Immortal

The Love-Hate Triangle - The starting part became more challenging. After that I don't think this is exactly what you intended.

[Crane]

I give up.  Why do I bother?  I have no idea how to patch High Rise Hijinks now.  It's too easy to time the Bomber so a Lemming can become a Blocker without anyone walking past.

[ericderkovits]

Hey Crane, Maybe submit a new Rule 1 level then, WillLem did that in the last contest when he replaced his Level The Diving Area with HoPpInG mAd.


Edit: I just played your version 8 of High Rise Hijinks in the editor. Still this version won't solve the problem. I still did the same backroute.

here is my version 8 replay