[DISC][RESOLVED] Moss-on-steel decoration for original game conversions

[Proxima]

In any case, I feel I should step in to clarify a few things, including what will be happening with the official conversions.

I'm really glad that WillLem has raised this issue, and I'm happy for discussion to continue regarding modifications to the engine that would allow decorated steel. If a future version of NL supports this, we can reopen the question of what to do with the official conversions. For now, since I would like to have a version of the official levels available for challenge purposes as soon as possible, that means working within the limitations of the current version of NL and what is known to be planned for NL 12.11.

One of the main reasons I am working on new official conversions at all is to be able to do challenges (especially what has become the main two challenges, max saves and skills you can't live without) on the original levels in NL; and one of the main reasons for that is that after years of observing challenges where it was unquestioned that DOS was the primary version, and glitch and non-glitch solutions were equally acceptable and treated alike, I would love to be able to explore the space of challenge solutions in a glitch-free environment. NL isn't quite the same as "DOS without glitches" because of various mechanics differences, but it is the closest we will ever get.

For that reason, it is axiomatic that the intended gameplay of the levels takes priority over appearance; and since steel blocks were intended to be indestructible (notwithstanding that there are well-known steel removal glitches in the original games), for the levels to work as intended in NL, moss overlapping steel has to be removed. (This won't quite be the same as in WillLem's mock-up, because I will keep the moss that is entirely below the steel blocks.) This was never up for discussion, and I'm sorry if the poll created the impression that the vote would determine the decision I made.

However, seeing that the community in general wants an NL conversion of the original levels to exist for general play and not just challenges, and that a majority of people are happy for the moss on steel to remain, I will be working with WillLem to make sure there are two downloads -- the "official for challenges" version with moss removed (and, incidentally, this version will have a plain black background on all levels) and a "nostalgia" version with moss intact and the Amiga blue background on all levels.

I know there are some people who won't be entirely satisfied with this outcome -- perhaps some people grew up with the DOS version and would prefer we kept things like the more lenient requirements on "Come on over to my place" and "The Steel Mines of Kessel" -- but we can't please everyone; and besides, if you want the experience of playing the original games, the option is always open to have that experience by playing the original games

[namida]

Another thought occurs at this point, though: maybe this could be solved from the steel side. Rather than creating new object types or having potentially misleading graphics, why not just make it so that, in the Editor, steel blocks can be set to override whatever is overlapping them via a simple checkbox that can be applied per-instance? The end result will be essentially the same anyway.

Because this raises exactly the same problems as Simple Autosteel, except that it's now being set per-steel-piece instead of per-level so it's even less consistent.

maybe terrain should never be allowed to overlap a steel block in NeoLemmix

Why? In the example you give - it may produce a somewhat awkward shape, but it's perfectly clear what's going on.

I can imagine it would be easy enough to hard-code steel to always "ride up" to the highest placement index, and thus always be drawn last.

And then two seconds later, you remember that eraser pieces exist and would not work nicely with this idea.


Ultimately - I don't see anything wrong with NL's determination of steel vs nonsteel, or NL's ability to overwrite steel, as it already stands. This is purely a problem of some people (I say "some" because WillLem is not the first, and probably won't be the last, to raise this issue) being attached to the way L1 does things. If it weren't for L1 having a few levels where they used not-intended-as-steel pieces to decorate intended-as-steel ones, we would not be having this discussion - much like we would not have the obligatory once-every-few-months discussion about timed bombers if L1 had also had them as instant. While it can be advisory at times, I do not consider what L1 does to be binding on NL in any way, and as I have stated - I believe there is an objectively correct answer for the right way to handle this situation in NL. If regular terrain overlaps steel, it should be because the regular terrain is intended to cancel out the steel. Otherwise, remove it or put the steel in front (and before you say "but why should I have to put the steel in front?", let me remind you that you just suggested forcing steel to be at the front always).

With all this being said - it is your pack, and up to you what you do with it (and being a conversion of an official game does not change this, it's still just another community pack as far as NL is concerned - only Redux has special status there, with the Intro Pack likely to join it when 12.11 stable is released).

The other thing I'd point out is - to "avoid affecting gameplay", the moss needs to be further from the edges than you may think. Having it less than ~16px or so from the left or right edge can affect basher terrain checks. And if there's any of it 6px or less from the bottom, it is possible to create a setup (provided enough other skills exist, of course) where the lemmings step up into it. And I'll stress - unless you're specifically making a level that takes advantage of these, the physics results explained here are generally going to be harmful, not helpful, to your levels. Given that NL's philosophy is "physics come first" (and then, anything that physics hasn't dictated either way, can be used to create nice aesthetics, with NL generally supporting such as long as it doesn't interfere with or create confusion around the physics), this leads to a conclusion of "don't do it, is the safest option".

[WillLem]

Because this raises exactly the same problems as Simple Autosteel

Just out of interest, what problems does Simple Autosteel create?

maybe terrain should never be allowed to overlap a steel block in NeoLemmix

Why? In the example you give - it may produce a somewhat awkward shape, but it's perfectly clear what's going on.

The point isn't that it's unclear, but that the terrain overlapping the steel allows a part of the steel block to be destroyed that clearly wasn't intended to be destroyed, and thus opens up a backroute.

Existing levels that present this problem can be fixed, of course, but my point is that it is possible to do this in NL whilst 'terrain-on-steel-can-always-be-destroyed' is a thing.

I can imagine it would be easy enough to hard-code steel to always "ride up" to the highest placement index, and thus always be drawn last.

And then two seconds later, you remember that eraser pieces exist and would not work nicely with this idea.

Heh. Good point

If it weren't for L1 having a few levels where they used not-intended-as-steel pieces to decorate intended-as-steel ones, we would not be having this discussion

If L1 didn't exist, this Forum (and indeed NeoLemmix) wouldn't, either

I get what you're saying, though, and I agree: of course NL should not have to be bound to behaviour of a previous version of the game (and, indeed, it has already crossed several oceans in its journey away from L1!). I can understand your frustration with this, and I genuinely can side with the idea that NL should have its own behaviour, and levels made for or converted for NL ought to conform.

before you say "but why should I have to put the steel in front?", let me remind you that you just suggested forcing steel to be at the front always

I wouldn't have said that (and, in fact, if you look at my only proper pack that isn't a remix pack, I very rarely place steel behind terrain anyway).

The reason I suggested this is because, if NL philosophy is "physics before aesthetics", then maybe steel should always appear on top of terrain. I perhaps should have worded it as a question rather than a suggestion, though, because I'm just exploring ideas at this point.

Again, bottom line: I fully support your point of view on this, namida. It's just good to have the discussion whilst the topic is hot.

[namida]

The point isn't that it's unclear, but that the terrain overlapping the steel allows a part of the steel block to be destroyed that clearly wasn't intended to be destroyed, and thus opens up a backroute.

I don't see how it's "clearly". In fact, I would have assumed being able to destroy that terrain was intentional, given that it's made-for-NL content and the terrain is in front of the steel.

Which, by extension, is an example of exactly why a consistent standard is needed.

[Proxima]

I don't see how it's "clearly". In fact, I would have assumed being able to destroy that terrain was intentional, given that it's made-for-NL content and the terrain is in front of the steel.

I was about to say almost the same thing -- although it's not actually made-for-NL content; it's a conversion of one of the PSP levels. I'm not familiar enough with that version to say whether it's an accurate conversion or not, so for now, I am going with what feels most natural, which in the case of a pillar being in front of steel, is that the pillar should be destructible.

Tricky 4 / Taxing 7 is another illustration, this one from original (Amiga) Lemmings. Regardless of how the original game actually behaved, the most natural assumption for a player looking at the level (a typical player who treats the game just as a game and doesn't know anything about how things work behind the scenes) is that the terrain mountain on the left, in front of the steel, is entirely destructible.

[WillLem]

I'm really glad that WillLem has raised this issue, and I'm happy for discussion to continue regarding modifications to the engine that would allow decorated steel. If a future version of NL supports this, we can reopen the question of what to do with the official conversions.

Agreed; and, it may be worth separating this stuff out into a separate topic.

I would love to be able to explore the space of challenge solutions in a glitch-free environment.

One of my favourite things about NL

However, seeing that the community in general wants an NL conversion of the original levels to exist for general play and not just challenges, and that a majority of people are happy for the moss on steel to remain, I will be working with WillLem to make sure there are two downloads -- the "official for challenges" version with moss removed (and, incidentally, this version will have a plain black background on all levels) and a "nostalgia" version with moss intact and the Amiga blue background on all levels.

Again, agreed. There clearly is a place for both in NeoLemmix, and it ultimately satisfies as many people as possible to allow both versions to be available. However, we'll need to figure out things like the levels having the same IDs and stuff like that. And, I'd ideally want to base "Version B" on your version, so that the versions are as consistent between each other as possible. Anyways, it's a future discussion for a future topic.

We have agreed to keep it to 1 version for the sake of keeping things as uncomplicated as possible. However, I will release a zip file containing the re-mossed levels for those that want them in their copy of the OGs.

if you want the experience of playing the original games, the option is always open to have that experience by playing the original games

Whilst this is absolutely true, and it's often thrown about as a general retort to any kind of traditionalism associated with modern clones/ports, the fact is that modern ports offer features and benefits that the OGs do not, and to which most of us have become accustomed.

So, it's only natural that there will be people who want to get as much of both worlds in one port as they possibly can. Mainly for the sake of convenience, to be absolutely blunt about it, but also because it generally makes sense to anyone who is both a) a fan of the OGs and b) an appreciator of the modern ports.

[Proxima]

So, it's only natural that there will be people who want to get as much of both worlds in one port as they possibly can. Mainly for the sake of convenience, to be absolutely blunt about it, but also because it generally makes sense to anyone who is both a) a fan of the OGs and b) an appreciator of the modern ports.

That is certainly true. It's still true that we can't cater for everyone, unless we were prepared to make a separate NL conversion pack for every version of original Lemmings, and that just feels like pointless effort. If there is anyone who especially wants a conversion with DOS level stats rather than Amiga, the levels are editable

[WillLem]

It's still true that we can't cater for everyone, unless we were prepared to make a separate NL conversion pack for every version of original Lemmings, and that just feels like pointless effort. If there is anyone who especially wants a conversion with DOS level stats rather than Amiga, the levels are editable

Agreed, and I'm also glad that we have settled on there being a single version of the OG conversions for NeoLemmix. When they're released, I'll simply upload a zip containing the re-mossed versions of the affected levels for those that would prefer these in their copy (N.B I will edit the moss so that gameplay is not affected). After all the discussion we've had, this does seem like the best way to resolve it.

My offer to help you with the conversions still stands, let me know if there's anything I can do to be of assistance

[Dullstar]

In the case of the moss, I think it's generally quite clear when they're being used as terrain and when they're being used as steel (does anyone have any examples of cases that appear ambiguous in levels that aren't trying to mess with the player?). If they were to exist as both paint objects and regular terrain, I don't think it would be an issue in any level that's not being intentionally misleading

I absolutely sympathise with this point of view -- indeed it's on record that I was strongly against "simple autosteel" being removed from NL for exactly this reason. However, on a technical level, there is indeed an issue:



Suppose that the "paint objects" you propose already existed, so that you could replace some of the moss with no-effect paint objects (leaving the underlying pixels steel), while some would be ordinary terrain. How would you go about deciding which should be which?

Clearly, the moss that's entirely below the steel blocks should be terrain -- the player would find it very strange if a builder didn't hit his head on it, and indeed on some levels they may deliberately build into such moss to turn around, and it being a no-effect object would spoil a solution that should have worked. And the moss that's entirely on top of steel should be a no-effect object. What about the pieces that are partially on steel and partially in the air? And if you think you have a clear answer for every piece in this screenshot, how do you feel about having to decide for every level?

I believe this is perfectly clear, actually: keep in mind that I said the paint objects would be locked to "only-on-terrain" mode (side note: I'm actually not sure if this option still exists; it was mostly used for one-way-arrows in the vanilla Lemmix/CustLemm days) - they are not the existing no-effect object type (although they would have no effect). I believe the "only-on-terrain" mode was also used to create the water effects in the Amiga version of one of the original levels - Poles Apart/We are now at Lemcon 1, I think. Because of this, if it's protruding outside the terrain, then it wouldn't exist at all. To create the visual effect, you would need a paint object on top of the steel, and a second regular terrain object underneath it.

Keep in mind this is actually already possible through slightly different means. There is nothing stopping me from creating a custom style that includes the moss pieces, set to be steel. These can then be applied over the top of steel, clipping off the edges using eraser pieces. Then, add the regular, non steel ones underneath somehow (i.e. no overwrite or terrain grouping + reordering). You now have moss that can decorate steel without issues, and if it's applied in this way, it will never be misleading to the player*. However, while this requires no new features to support, it does have a major disadvantage: even if we're not trying to be misleading, we could easily accidentally use the wrong moss piece. While yes, you could do this with the paint ones, too, the paint ones simply allow steel. The current ones are steel, so if you use the wrong one, bad things will happen that can only be detected in clear physics. With paint objects, nothing bad happens for the player, and the designer is only minorly inconvenienced when they notice the moss paint object disappears when it's outside other terrain.

*Keep in mind that people aren't really analyzing steel/not steel at the pixel level. It might be hard for a computer algorithm to detect the difference based purely on the visuals, but I doubt it would confuse a human.



Simple autosteel was the traditional method of doing this, but the Taxing 7 example is a very good example of why it's a bad solution. The proposed solution of paint objects forces designers to work harder when they want to mislead; simple autosteel would force designers who don't want to mislead to work harder (because they now have to erase the steel before they can safely put stuff over it).

[Proxima]

Keep in mind this is actually already possible through slightly different means. There is nothing stopping me from creating a custom style that includes the moss pieces, set to be steel.

While that is true, it's definitely not a solution I feel comfortable with for the official conversions of the original levels, firstly because I don't want them to require the user to install any more custom styles than necessary (I am considering using the SMS styles for more authentic remakes of "Sixes Not" and "Stepping Stones"); more importantly because this approach would be confusing to the NeoLemmix audience who wouldn't know whether particular pieces of moss are steel or terrain any more without looking in clear physics mode -- even if I tried to make it perfectly consistent within this pack, the pieces would then be available for all packs. For that reason, I am not sure whether namida would even allow a custom style with pieces looking identical to existing pieces, but being steel, to be distributed.

[Dullstar]

It definitely opens up a lot more abuse potential than the proposed paint object method, and for that reason I think the paint objects are probably the best solution.

That said, consider a player whose knowledge of steel consists of the NeoLemmix introduction pack, and nothing more - a player who's likely not too familiar with how things behave under the hood, and may have forgotten about clear physics mode after not using it for a while since it's not normally needed. I would like someone to seriously try to convince me that a level that has decorative moss on the steel (that behaves as a steel area) is being more misleading to this player than a level that uses moss on steel in order to make a portion of the steel destructible and requires the player to make use of this behavior (let's assume the skillset is flexible enough/terrain complex enough so it's not obvious that there's nothing else you can do but try to destroy the steel).

Of course, it's probably silly that I fight this moss issue so much. I never use Dirt anymore; it's very difficult for me to work with: I am, of course, the one who went through the effort of preparing L2 classic (with a bit of help from Icho from stuff he had lying around from the other L2 conversions) - for use with NL because I was irritated with Pillar's quirks, so... why don't the grass contours and the clump contours match?!

[WillLem]

I would like someone to seriously try to convince me that a level that has decorative moss on the steel (that behaves as a steel area) is being more misleading to this player than a level that uses moss on steel in order to make a portion of the steel destructible and requires the player to make use of this behavior

I totally agree: being able to destroy parts of steel blocks that are overlapped with terrain seems to me to be way more potentially problematic than allowing terrain to overlap steel with the steel area remaining indestructible.

I never use Dirt anymore; it's very difficult for me to work with
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why don't the grass contours and the clump contours match?!

Because if they did, it would look too perfect, and the Dirt style is supposed to look imperfect, earthy and gnarly.

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To weigh in on the paint objects vs making 'steel-that-looks-like-moss', it seems obvious that the latter is definitely not the way to go, especially in NeoLemmix, for pretty much all the reasons already mentioned (and personally, the potential for accidentally selecting the steel version rather than the normal version is reason enough not to do it!).

In contrast, the paint objects seem like a really good idea. Further discussion is clearly needed on their potential for misleading or "NeoLemmix-unfriendly" behaviour, but it seems like a discussion that's worth having. Maybe break it away into a new topic, though, because I think we're settled on the original topic, which is specifically regarding what's happening with the moss-on-steel in the new OG conversions.*

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*For those who may not be aware, it has been decided that the moss will be removed except where it is completely inaccessible anyway. This seems like a decent compromise to me, so I no longer see any need to maintain a second version of the pack; I will, however, provide fully re-mossed versions of just the affected levels, for those that want them in their NL library.

[namida]

Ultimately, there is no way in which moss can be fairly placed over steel, except the edge case of "placing it really far away from the edges" (at least 1px away from the top, 6px from the bottom, and about 16px from left/right).

I can further say that all the discussion about using a potential "paint" or "sticker" type object, to create a graphic identical to a normal non-steel terrain piece, and overlay that over steel, very much makes me hesitant to implement such a feature. At the very least, I'm going to have to give some consideration about how - either in terms of community rules (the kind that are enforced at the level of "what gets added to the style manager?") or technical limitations - on how to prevent such usage.

Once again - the only reason this gets thought of as a valid exception to the "don't do misleading / confusing stuff with physics" is because L1 did it, and just like timed bombers shows us, L1 is not always right. You don't see anyone saying "I should be able to run one of those pillars from Brick through the middle of steel and it remains indestructible" - it's completely unique to a case where L1 chose to prioritize aesthetics over clarity. L1 had no explicit rule on which was more important; NeoLemmix does, and doing things the L1-way does not fit it.

I'm going to put this as directly and bluntly as I can: If you want to create levels where the terrain is wilfully misleading, please do so on a different engine. I will not outright ban levels that do such things from being posted, but I would really prefer if such levels were kept off NL. If you really feel that steel needs to be decorated, let's come up with a way to do so that cannot in any way be confused for "normal terrain that partly overlaps, and thus cancels, the steel". Yes, this means we can't do exactly what L1 did - and that is something that we should be used to in NL by now, and no longer always looking for loopholes / tricks to make possible.

[WillLem]

it's completely unique to a case where L1 chose to prioritize aesthetics over clarity

If anything, it comes as a surprise to be able to destroy terrain obscuring a steel block; I wouldn't at first expect to be able to do so. (EDIT: Incidentally, I specifically remember this exact thing happening in L1, on Taxing 2: when mining towards the steel to stop the lems walking into the water, the miner went much further than I expected. Turns out, on looking at the LVLs, that the steel areas are indeed intentionally smaller than the blocks on this particular level, thus allowing the terrain obscuring the steel to be destroyed).

You don't see anyone saying "I should be able to run one of those pillars from Brick through the middle of steel and it remains indestructible"

I'm not sure what you mean here...

I'm going to put this as directly and bluntly as I can: If you want to create levels where the terrain is wilfully misleading, please do so on a different engine.

I'm well aware by now that misleading the player in any way constitutes bad level design and should be avoided. I have made it very clear on several occasions now that I have no intention of releasing any content for NL which may be considered misleading.

If you really feel that steel needs to be decorated, let's come up with a way to do so that cannot in any way be confused for "normal terrain that partly overlaps, and thus cancels, the steel"

Agreed. New topic?



On a much less serious note, I hope this video can bring a bit of humour to the debate

[Simon]

I too was hesitant with any push towards decorative tiles/stickers/paint tiles. I'm not convinced they solve the moss ambiguity; they might buy new problems about as big as what it's supposed to solve.

The moss on the steel looks so nice and peaceful, lovely decoration. I have a soft spot for these all-natural, fat-free, no-preservatives-added tilesets. More lovely plants and vines and moss, more of these serene, lonely levels.

Yes, I like the popcorn that the moss will always generate. <_< It's also insightful re game design.

Popcorn

-- Simon