[DISC][RESOLVED] Moss-on-steel decoration for original game conversions

[WillLem]

As some of you may be aware, Proxima will soon be re-releasing the NeoLemmix conversions of Lemmings, Oh No! More Lemmings and company.

Whilst all decorative water and terrain from the Amiga version will be included, the plan is to remove all decorative moss wherever it overlaps a steel block. This is because, in NeoLemmix, terrain is always destructible, even if it's on top of a steel area.

Here's an example of where this can create potential issues which may affect intended gameplay:



I think we can all agree that this effect is undesirable, especially in a platform which intends to be as glitch/bug-free as possible.

However, removing the moss altogether seems far too drastic a measure to prevent this. It makes the level look very bare, as compared to its lushly decorated counterpart:



I suggest that the moss simply be moved further from the edges of the steel, and only then in cases where gameplay is potentially affected. Here's how that would look:



Of course, Bombers would still be able to destroy the moss, which arguably looks a bit odd, but at least the gameplay would be completely unaffected:



Thoughts?

[WillLem]

Added a poll to gauge community opinion.

[namida]

I'll note that moss-on-steel isn't in the same league as eg. hidden exits, because you can still fairly clearly see what's what. It's just that it tends to create a very awkward setup physics-wise, and in the context of older levels (including the official games) in particular, the intent was very, very obviously for the whole block to be indestructible, which when put together with the NL philosophy that physics are the highest priority, in this context the answer is "remove the moss". I don't even consider this an opinion - if it's meant to be a proper port to NL, rather than just "try and force them into NL as closely as possible", it should really follow all NL standards, much like Redux does.

This is a big reason why I decided against having any official port other than Redux - because they simply do not fit well with NL philosophy, and attempts to modify them to do so just descend into this kind of endless bickering over specific finer points. Reproducing the official games exactly on NeoLemmix is not possible - there will always be something different, because NeoLemmix is a very different engine. This is a perfect example - you either sacrifice graphical accuracy to the originals, or you (more so than just "different engine") sacrifice physics accuracy. The only way to avoid both is to instead blatantly violate the standards expected of styles, and create pieces that look like normal terrain but are actually steel - and having to go to that kind of extent to make something work should be a clear sign that you're attempting an impractical task. Redux, being more of a new pack based on the official games, seems to have managed to be "disconnected" enough from them that it doesn't fall victim to the same, and the fact that it has differences from the original versions is accepted.

[ericderkovits]

I voted to keep them the way they are. As you know I'm a purist when it comes to lemmings, As that's how I grew up with the game in the 90's. So whatever may not be good in the originals, to me it doesn't matter as I want levels to be the way they were made.

[namida]

I voted to keep them the way they are. As you know I'm a purist when it comes to lemmings, As that's how I grew up with the game in the 90's. So whatever may not be good in the originals, to me it doesn't matter as I want levels to be the way they were made.

"The way they were made" was such that all of the steel couldn't be destroyed (aside from via glitches). Keeping the moss breaks this.

[Dullstar]

I like the decorative moss. It creates some minor issues in NL if it's at the edge, but in most cases it doesn't seem game-breaking, and moving it like 1 pixel fixes it in most situations. I think the moss should be allowed to stay. Most of the levels that used it look quite bland in NL without it, and Dirt is already a style that's hard to work with at times.

I'd actually go a step further and say that NL should really try to find a way to make this type of decoration possible again. I'd suggest a new object type that's locked to always be drawn only-on-terrain, that allows decorating steel. Sure, it can be used to hide stuff by malicious style designers, but we could always reject such styles from the style manager. Besides, style creators can already be misleading: if they want to, there's no reason they can't make a steel-looking block non-steel, or a non-steel looking block steel.

[WillLem]

I'd actually go a step further and say that NL should really try to find a way to make this type of decoration possible again.

I agree, although I think that simply allowing steel blocks to be designed pre-decorated would be enough, rather than creating another object type.

In fact, L3 Biolab has steel blocks which are decorated with leaves. Maybe steel blocks with moss on them could be created for the orig_dirt style (in addition to the existing non-decorated ones). This could potentially be a lot of work, tbf, so I suggest it only very hesitantly. But, it would resolve the physics/graphics issue.

Having said that, such a design is likely not to be "NL-philosophy-friendly", I can imagine...



Anyway, since the poll results (and comments) so far indicate that there is definitely interest in maintaining a fully-decorated version of the OGs for NeoLemmix, I will most likely either continue to maintain Amiga Lemmings, or else simply restore the affected levels and make them available as an optional zip when the new conversions are done. Neither of these are my preference, to be honest, I would much rather a compromise of sorts be reached on a single version.

Let's see what happens, anyway. There are certainly more important things for us all to be worrying about/getting on with, I'm sure

[Simon]

2016 thread: Steel decoration: steel or earth?

geoo had the idea in Lix to make stickers/stamps/decorational terrain. I haven't ever implemented it, but the idea is relevant here; it's similar to Dullstar's idea.

Stickers would be a new kind of tile. It will be ordered among terrain, e.g., you can z-order it in between two tiles. Only those pixels of the sticker that overlap already-drawn terrain will be drawn. Drawn sticker pixels will not affect steel/earth-ness of the terrain that it overdraws.

geoo encouraged that stickers use lots of nontrivial alpha (= make the pixels semi-opaque), e.g., to draw decorational cracks in walls such that the cracks blend nicely with the walls. For terrain, we don't like nontrivial alpha much, we encourage full transparency or full opaqueness wherever sensible. But for stickers, alpha blending would even be encouraged.



I have no good opinion on this. It's hefty to invent a new type of tile for the moss. But on the other hand, the issue has come up every few years in NL and in Lix, and there is no obvious solution in the culture where everything, per-pixel, is what it looks.

If the stickers only draw over existing pixels, you'd need two tiles to generate moss hanging from the steel block: A sticker for the moss in the steel, and a regular terrain tile ("earth") for the moss that hangs.

-- Simon

[namida]

I am not a fan of having it able to exist as both a no-effect draw-on and a regular piece of terrain. This creates a situation where the player outright doesn't know what it is without testing (or engaging CPM).

The sticker idea in and of itself is viable - indeed, I proposed a similar idea but under the name "paint object" as a replacement for only-on-terrain. However, I'd think to be fair, it would need to look completely different from anything that exists as solid terrain, at least in the case where it might otherwise make steel / nonsteel unclear.

[Simon]

I agree that it's problematic when tileset designers make two similar-looking tiles of different types. This usually hints at problems in the (proposed) design of the types themselves.

-- Simon

[namida]

In this case, I would say that - either way - this problem ultimately is a holdover from L1, much like timed bombers. If L1 didn't do it, there would be a very low likelihood of it coming up in the first place.

[Dullstar]

In the case of the moss, I think it's generally quite clear when they're being used as terrain and when they're being used as steel (does anyone have any examples of cases that appear ambiguous in levels that aren't trying to mess with the player?). If they were to exist as both paint objects and regular terrain, I don't think it would be an issue in any level that's not being intentionally misleading - and designers that want to create misleading levels will always find a way. There's nothing stopping level designers from making a troll style to make their troll levels, so for that reason I don't like the idea of taking decorative options away simply to prevent troll levels from being created.

[WillLem]

In the case of the moss, I think it's generally quite clear when they're being used as terrain and when they're being used as steel (does anyone have any examples of cases that appear ambiguous in levels that aren't trying to mess with the player?). If they were to exist as both paint objects and regular terrain, I don't think it would be an issue in any level that's not being intentionally misleading - and designers that want to create misleading levels will always find a way. There's nothing stopping level designers from making a troll style to make their troll levels, so for that reason I don't like the idea of taking decorative options away simply to prevent troll levels from being created.

+1 for this.

I'll add that the very concept of "troll level prevention" gives such levels a status they almost certainly don't deserve.

[Proxima]

In the case of the moss, I think it's generally quite clear when they're being used as terrain and when they're being used as steel (does anyone have any examples of cases that appear ambiguous in levels that aren't trying to mess with the player?). If they were to exist as both paint objects and regular terrain, I don't think it would be an issue in any level that's not being intentionally misleading

I absolutely sympathise with this point of view -- indeed it's on record that I was strongly against "simple autosteel" being removed from NL for exactly this reason. However, on a technical level, there is indeed an issue:



Suppose that the "paint objects" you propose already existed, so that you could replace some of the moss with no-effect paint objects (leaving the underlying pixels steel), while some would be ordinary terrain. How would you go about deciding which should be which?

Clearly, the moss that's entirely below the steel blocks should be terrain -- the player would find it very strange if a builder didn't hit his head on it, and indeed on some levels they may deliberately build into such moss to turn around, and it being a no-effect object would spoil a solution that should have worked. And the moss that's entirely on top of steel should be a no-effect object. What about the pieces that are partially on steel and partially in the air? And if you think you have a clear answer for every piece in this screenshot, how do you feel about having to decide for every level?

[WillLem]

The sticker idea in and of itself is viable - indeed, I proposed a similar idea but under the name "paint object" as a replacement for only-on-terrain. However, I'd think to be fair, it would need to look completely different from anything that exists as solid terrain, at least in the case where it might otherwise make steel / nonsteel unclear.

If they were to exist as both paint objects and regular terrain, I don't think it would be an issue in any level that's not being intentionally misleading - and designers that want to create misleading levels will always find a way.

Suppose that the "paint objects" you propose already existed, so that you could replace some of the moss with no-effect paint objects (leaving the underlying pixels steel), while some would be ordinary terrain. How would you go about deciding which should be which?

If stickers/paint objects were to exist, I'd be strongly in favour of them existing as a separate object in their own tab (next to sketches and backgrounds).

Regarding namida's concern about them needing to "not look like existing terrain" - as Dullstar has pointed out, there is currently nothing stopping a style designer from making an entire style of terrain that looks like steel, steel that look like terrain, background objects that look like terrain, etc (except, of course, the knowledge that such a style is very unlikely to get a positive reception). It might seem counter-intuitive, but maybe offering the potential to be misleading on a plate to designers will actually make it less likely to happen.

The point here is context, which brings me to Proxima's question. The answer would be, it depends...

Back when I was making a proposed conversion, I was given instructions to move the moss away from the edges of the steel. Firstly, there are only a handful of levels in L1 that are affected, and some of these are repeats.

Secondly, on these levels, most of the time the moss is well within the steel area, and it's only when it's dangling from the steel that it becomes ambiguous, so there wouldn't actually be that many decisions to make. Furthermore, if stickers were set to only display "on terrain", then it would become obvious quite quickly which ones need to be stickers and which ones need to be terrain.

Another thought occurs at this point, though: maybe this could be solved from the steel side. Rather than creating new object types or having potentially misleading graphics, why not just make it so that, in the Editor, steel blocks can be set to override whatever is overlapping them via a simple checkbox that can be applied per-instance? The end result will be essentially the same anyway.



I'm glad this discussion is happening, because it's an important one, and I have made my own views clear. However, ultimately, I am fully in support of whatever namida thinks is the best way to go with this. It's clear that NeoLemmix exists essentially as another platform to which the OGs can be ported, and - if they are - then perhaps they do need to be modified to suit the platform, as any other port would.

From this POV, maybe steel should not only never be decorated, but maybe terrain should never be allowed to overlap a steel block in NeoLemmix. This seems, in fact, to be the only way to enforce the philosophy (and, incidentally, there are plenty of examples beyond moss decoration for which terrain-on-steel can be an issue in NL):



I can imagine it would be easy enough to hard-code steel to always "ride up" to the highest placement index, and thus always be drawn last.