[DISC][PLAYER] Slider - Naming, visuals, etc

[namida]

Similar to the Laserer, I guess at this point it's time to talk about the visual / etc aspects of the Slider skill.

For reference, the existing Slider sprite is derived from the Climber, while the existing Dehoister sprite is (very obviously) derived from the Hoister. There is no reason that either needs to remain the case; I'm certianly okay with eg. using the L2 slider sprite if it's preferred, and using a new Dehoister animation (if someone's willing to make one, of course).

Similar to the initial phase of the Laserer's version of this topic, it's "no such thing as a bad idea (within reason)" at this stage; and the physics of the Slider, not the cosmetics, are what's confirmed (more or less) already.

[Dullstar]

I definitely think that using the visuals from L2 would be a good starting point.

[namida]

Is there a rip of the L2 sprite anywhere?

[WillLem]

Is there a video anywhere of the L2 slider? Tried doing a quick search on YouTube and even loaded the game in the Amiga emu, but can't seem to find it...

[namida]

Is there a video anywhere of the L2 slider? Tried doing a quick search on YouTube and even loaded the game in the Amiga emu, but can't seem to find it...

Space 3 seems to be the earliest level in a tribe that has one, if Practice mode doesn't allow it.

It's not a problem that the colors are different - I can easily recolor them to match the others.

[ericderkovits]

hey WillLem, Icho has a playlist of solving every level of L2. here is a link to levels 3 and 4 of space, level 3 which has a slider.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hLqSvWboCg&list=PLKR1N9oJTTlIgaYxWoepL79bdwartclzY&index=47

just go to Icho's youtube channel to find videos for his L2 playthrough of any levels.

[WillLem]

Ah yes, I see it. It's at this point in the video.

It should be easy enough to recreate if we can't get the sprite from somewhere; it's only the hair that animates.

[Strato Incendus]

Yeah, IchoTolot did his best to avoid using the Slider back in that Lemmings 2-Let's Play, which is why a lot of levels that provide them don't actually require it for the solution he uses. ^^
That's how I understood why he wasn't a fan of the Slider initially (you remember our vivid debates).

By now, a lot has changed, obviously - IchoTolot seems to have a much more favourable opinion of the Slider now, and I've become much more acceptant of the Spearer and Grenader (and I really hope they make it in as well! )

I only remembered IchoTolot using the Slider on some Medieval level, but it was only on thin platforms to turn around and drop on the next-lower one, so no actually sliding down a longer straight wall.

Just because it's in the title: I don't think the name "Slider" is up for debate, is it? (In contrast to the Laserer / Blaster).

For reference, the existing Slider sprite is derived from the Climber,

Ah, good to know, I wasn't aware!

If it's not possible or too much of a hassle to rip the Slider sprite from L2, I wouldn't mind if we keep using the current one for the time being.

You might remember that for a long time, the original NeoLemmix Platformer sprite also was the same as that of the Builder, and the Disarmer sprite was the same as for the Digger.

Since those changes weren't made until after the transition to New Formats, you can easily make the comparison by just opening a random Old-Formats level featuring those skills in the old player / editor.

As long as both sprites have the same number of frames, this shouldn't affect the game mechanics in any way, should it?

[namida]

Just because it's in the title: I don't think the name "Slider" is up for debate, is it? (In contrast to the Laserer / Blaster).

I'd be surprised if a better idea comes along, but I'm open to one if it does.

As long as both sprites have the same number of frames, this shouldn't affect the game mechanics in any way, should it?

Even if they have a different number, it's fine. The frame count only really matters in cases where there's a correspondence between visuals and physics of some kind; eg. the builder needs to be set up around placing a brick every Xth frame, starting at frame Y, that kind of thing. The slider would just be animating for eye candy, it isn't something that indicates anything from the physics, so there's no restriction on frame count.

Dehoister is another matter, the frame count should remain as-is on that one, because it's a "go through the animation once before changing to something else, end of animation indicates end of state" situation.

[Dullstar]

Alright, so taking a look at L2's file formats, I *should* be able to rip the slider graphics, but a better question is if it's worth the effort of doing: another option would be to just record a video and then manually reconstruct the sprites. So I want to ask this: are there any other sprites we'd like to extract from L2 while we're at it? If so, then actually ripping them might be a better option, but if not, then it'll probably be faster if I do it by hand.

I'm not concerned about the workload for either option and already have a level in mind that contains a slider. One advantage of doing an actual rip would be that we'd have all of them if we wanted them (I'd likely need to extract all the lemming graphics to find the slider graphics anyway, so it's barely any more work to save the rest of them while I'm at it). But doing it by hand would be way faster for the Slider specifically.

[namida]

It probably wouldn't hurt to rip the L2 sprites for the other new skills (or their closest equivalents) while we're at it - although if it's too much effort, don't worry too much about this.

[Dullstar]

I have the animations for the L2 slider done (dehoister + slider), but they're not currently in a state that NeoLemmix can use. I'll need information on how to properly layout the sprite.

There's 1 frame in the animation I'm not quite sure what to do with, which appears to be the first frame of the slider animation, but it's not actually part of the loop. It appears to go with the slider, rather than the dehoister, but I'm not sure what's going on internally with the lemming's state (as these were just hand-redrawn from recorded footage, rather than ripped) at this point. Either L2 has the ability to specify a loop point within an animation, or that frame actually goes with the dehoister and not the slider. We should probably discuss what to do with that frame; I'm honestly not sure if NL even supports loop points in animations - if it does, I don't know any examples that use it.

The frame in question looks the same as the two other frames on the slider, but it has flatter hair, as if it hasn't actually built up any speed yet.

Note that this dehoister animation's frame count was replicated exactly from the one in L2 and may or may not match the current numbers. That said, if we were to decide to use the L2 animations and the frame counts don't match, the experimentals are definitely the time to make those sorts of changes.

[namida]

I'm honestly not sure if NL even supports loop points in animations - if it does, I don't know any examples that use it.

Floater / Glider use it.

But at any rate - just having the rip is fine, I can sort out the rest. I might need to make some slight tweaks to the dehoister physics to go nicely with that sprite anyway. (Though, I don't have a tool handy for seperating the frames in a GIF - any chance of a conversion to PNG? Either a strip or just one-PNG-per-frame is fine.)

[Dullstar]

Yeah, png conversion should be easy; just another export option. I'll also include the asesprite files in case they're of use.

In the conversions, I did not include any extra padding between frames, and each animation has been trimmed (individual frames, however, are not trimmed).

Dehoister notes: The lemming effectively pivots around a specific pixel; I made all the frames the same size (10x14) and have that pixel remain in a fixed location, so the image won't have to be drawn in a different spot each frame to look right. I've included an example mockup of how this would look in game (well, the lemming would be athlete colored, too... but I didn't manually do it for the mockup, as it's not really important for the point I'm trying to make). Note the "hand" pixel grabbing the top of the edge. If the animation is positioned such that this hand pixel is in the correct location as shown in the picture, the whole animation should look correct.

Slider notes: Each frame is 4x10. Let 0 represent the first frame. The sequence for this animation is 0 -> 1 -> 2 -> 1 -> 2 -> 1 -> 2 -> 1 ...