NeoLemmix V12.11.0-RC Released [RC2 update released]

[namida]

The issue with the editor was that the wrong version of the editor was included in the download.

I've reuploaded it with the correct editor now, so if you haven't downloaded it anyway - download in the first post has the correct editor now. If you only need the updated editor, it's attached to this post. (There is no other change in the reupload.)

[Kingshadow3]

I gave terrain resizing a whirl. Looks good.

https://i.imgur.com/oKUXLUo.png

[IchoTolot]

After the thing with the swimmer edge cases has been cleared, I will then run a bunch of replays through the RC version to check for any breakage this weekend.

[WillLem]

I gave terrain resizing a whirl. Looks good.

[namida]

After the thing with the swimmer edge cases has been cleared, I will then run a bunch of replays through the RC version to check for any breakage this weekend.

For the overhang case, I decided to leave things as is, so all that remains is testing the other changes to make sure breakage is at acceptable levels (or even better, that there isn't any, but that might be hoping for a bit much).

[IchoTolot]

Results from checking MY replay collection of a bunch of packs that have swimmers in it (or I was unsure if they have ):

Lemmings United: 0 breaks

NeoLemmix Introduction pack: 0 breaks

Lemmings World Tour: 2 breaks

- Professional 7: Lemmings swim out the bottom of the level instead of turning around. Breakage because of change that lemmings can dow swim down out of the water. Fixable.
- Rockstar 18: Level actively uses the 4 pixel threshold that to seperate climbers from swimmers. Only maybe fixable.

The lemmings have grown: 1 break

- Morning walk 25: Level accidentally uses the 4 pixel threshold so that a climber now dives. (Wall right of the exit cave) Fixable though as it's just accidentally used.

Sammings 2: 1 break

- Castle 4: Replay broke because of changed dive behavior. Only the replay broke though and the level is still solvable.

MegSEGAbytes: 0 breaks

Lemmings Destination: 0 breaks

Assorted Gubbins: 0 breaks

All Hallow's Eve: 0 breaks

GodLems: 0 breaks

Lemmings Plus VI: 0 breaks

Modular Lems: 0 breaks

Renaissance Lemmings: 0 breaks

SEB Lems: 0 breaks

Festival Millas 2018: 0 breaks

Festival Millas 2019: 0 breaks

Integral Lemmings: 0 breaks

WillLem's Xmas Lemmings 2019: 0 breaks

Yippee! More Lemmings: 0 breaks


So far the breaksge is quite low with only 3 breaks that require action. Therefore I am currently still for the change.

I highly advertise other people to mass replay check other packs with swimmers that I did not cover here!

[Strato Incendus]

- Professional 7: Lemmings swim out the bottom of the level instead of turning around. Breakage because of change that lemmings can dow swim down out of the water. Fixable.
- Rockstar 18: Level actively uses the 4 pixel threshold that to seperate climbers from swimmers. Only maybe fixable.

Well, thanks for doing my work for me, IchoTolot! Indeed, I'll have to see to what extent this can be fixed at all for Rockstar 18.
Don't expect this fix before the stable version of 12.11 comes out, though.

The Swimmer was such a long-established skill back when I made those levels that I didn't expect anything to ever change about it again. Therefore, I don't have a bad conscience about having made a level where this 4-pixel threshold is actually crucial. But now, at least for the New-Formats version, we'll have to look forward and see whether the level can even continue to work to begin with.

[namida]

With only 4 breaks over that many levels, I am more than satisfied that this is a case of "benefits of fixing a glitchy behavior outweigh the breakage impact", so I'll be leaving these changes as-is (unless further actual bugs are found). The Glider fix in 12.9 had far more breakage than that and was still considered acceptable.

[ericderkovits]

I tried the mass replay check on Lemmings Open Air. 1 level broke, Loud 21 (I Believe I can fly). It seems the swimmer hatched lemmings can't climb up onto the stoners.

Edit: There is no problem with the swimmers and stoners in Loud 21. Just had to reposition the stoners, although seemed more difficult in 12.11RC.

[kaywhyn]

I tried the mass replay check on Lemmings Open Air. 1 level broke, Loud 21 (I Believe I can fly). It seems the swimmer hatched lemmings can't climb up onto the stoners.

The swimmers can step up on them, the stoners just need careful positioning due to the swimmer transition on how they step on terrain. In any case, the breakage is nothing related to the swimmer change, since there's no ledge or ceiling that swimmers need to ascend or descend on that level. Just solved the level, and so the level is still possible. Also, I mass replay checked LOA, and plenty of them break, but that's because a lot of levels have changed since I last finished the pack. I will need to go back and resolve the changed levels. However, none of them break due to the swimmer change for 12.11RC.

While we're on the subject of replays possibly breaking due to the swimmer change, here's what I found:

Lemminas: No breakage

Doomsday Lemmings: No breakage

Shmolems: No breakage

I've mass replay checked other packs, but Icho already reported on them or turns out they didn't have any swimmers provided. In any case, none of them broke either, including Tame Gone Wild, Clammings, Nuked Lems, and Ron Stard's Rodents

[Dullstar]

I'll mention this here in case anyone happens to know what I'm talking about: While I was testing a level in 12.10, definitely remember encountering a setup with an updraft and gliders in which non-climbers would turn around, but climbers would continue. Considering there isn't a glider->climber transition, this seems like a bug, possibly related to the climber-swimmer behavior fixed in this version. As such, I wanted to verify it still occurs in this version before reporting it, but I couldn't replicate the setup at all, even in 12.10 - I should have saved the version of the level that exhibited it, in retrospect, but I thought it would be easy to recreate, and it was an undesired behavior for the level I was working on, so I altered the terrain so it wouldn't happen. Either I'm just remembering things wrong and it never actually happened, or it was caused by something other than what I thought was causing it, therefore causing the recreation attempts to fail. It involved an updraft transitioning into a sloped overhang, e.g. something like L2 Egypt block_04 or block_09.

[ericderkovits]

Thanks Kaywhyn, I went ahead and solved the level over again in 12.11RC, Seemed more difficult, but I managed it(although saved 1 fewer lemmings so just met requirement instead of 1 over in 12.10.03.)

Anyways here is my 12.11RC loud 21 replay(also works in 12.10.3). also posted it on Youtube. Also I wonder why my 12.10.03 Loud 21 replay then would fail in 12.11RC??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toAnwP6s5R0

also like the new postview jingles.

Of course my Loud 5 replay that used the climber and shimmier that can jump off the stack no longer works in 12.11RC which is a good thing that Namida fixed.

It's just I want to have the Loud 21 solution for when 12.11 comes out.

Note: It's still good to check packs with no swimmers to make sure no levels relied on the cliimber shimmier bug(hopefully nobody did this).

[kaywhyn]

Nice job, eric! Yes, I apparently had the really old Loud 21 version. With the steel wall added, I agree that the level is way harder now. Even I struggled, but in the end I managed to save 1 more than the requirement. I don't see any reason why your Loud 21 replay would break either

edit: Ah, I see now why Loud 21 is so much harder as a result of the swimmer fix. In 12.10.3,

Spoiler

When the swimmer becomes a faller, after 1 or 2 pixels, you can stone and the next swimmer to come will turn around on the stoner instead of diving underneath. In addition, I think I see what you mean. If you assign the next swimmer a climber, it will climb the stoner but of course fail due to the overhang in the stoner terrain. HOWEVER, in 12.11RC, stoning in those same two pixels/locations will cause the next swimmer to transition to faller once it touches it instead of diving underneath first. Even assigning the climber it won't attempt to climb at all.

At least Loud 21 is still solvable, just way harder now due to the swimmer change. So, I believe I might be wrong here in that the replay: It does break due to the swimmer change.

Note: It's still good to check packs with no swimmers to make sure no levels relied on the cliimber shimmier bug(hopefully nobody did this).

I never used it in any of my solutions, so therefore I never had to check for this. I didn't even know about it until Strato reported it

[ericderkovits]

The reason, Kaywhyn, Strato reported it was because that was my solution for Loud 5 at the beginning. If you go look at Strato's responses to my early loud replays, you will notice his response was shock. He didn't even know it was possible. I did though. Even though I knew it wasn't supposed to happen, I wanted to see Strato's response to that level when I posted it.

[kaywhyn]

Yes, I remember reading Strato's feedback about the climber shimmer on a stack. Except for you, I think no one knew about it.