[SUG][PLAYER] Use a separate "looker" state instead of shrugger for throwers

[namida]

Hard to put my finger on exactly why, but I feel the lemming becomes available for re-assignment too quickly. A longer delay would be beneficial from the gameplay point of view since when you spam several grenaders you could see more of the effects before you choose to assign, and it would be easier to avoid the very common mistake of assigning one too many. (Of course, spamming shouldn't be the most common use case and maybe we shouldn't be bothered too much about what it feels like.) Still, even in general it just feels quicker than I would expect it to be at the moment.

Fair enough - I hadn't even considered should the window start later to be honest. Do you feel the duration of the assignment period is okay (and it just needs to start later), or...?

[Dullstar]

The use of spamming has been an issue in some of the easier "fun style" levels and has hurt my opinion of these skills rather than helped them, honestly. The only skills that come even close in terms of "seriously, why would you do that, level designer?" potential is excessive use of builders/platformers to cross stupidly large gaps.

[WillLem]

I feel the lemming becomes available for re-assignment too quickly

I'd actually be in favour of the window starting earlier. However, as long as the window is longer, later is fine.

The use of spamming has been an issue in some of the easier "fun style" levels and has hurt my opinion of these skills rather than helped them, honestly. The only skills that come even close in terms of "seriously, why would you do that, level designer?" potential is excessive use of builders/platformers to cross stupidly large gaps.

I have to take issue with this general sentiment. There can be many reasons why a level designer would choose to include large gaps for building across, including but not limited to:

a) enforcing multitasking
b) ensuring the builders are required for that particular task, and cannot be used elsewhere (and maybe it's not practical to simply make the gap smaller)
c) aesthetic reasons, which are important; as much as I love Oh No! More Lemmings, a lot of its levels are very boring to look at because the designers prioritised puzzles over aesthetics. Original Lemmings is a far more iconic game, arguably because its levels are far more recognisable, with this being arguably due to their aesthetic value
d) to make a longer, more epic level; one-screeners are great, but the occasional builder-fest is fine by me, especially if the music is good

And, I wish there were a better term than "spamming" to mean "repetitive skill assignment"; it infuses it with a negativity it doesn't necessarily deserve. Chucking loads of Grenades at a wall to blow a path through it is great fun! Also, it's a fact that repetitition is one of the best ways to learn, understand, and get better at things. I've learned way more about all of the skills by being given opportunities to "spam" them than by following the detailed instructions of a level that only provides enough of the skills necessary to complete its prescribed solution.

Grr! Rant over

[namida]

Okay so, a "stay in place until impact" is clearly out - only one person voted for that. So, I think it's time to say absolutely for sure, that's ruled out. There is about equal support between keeping it as-is, or making it longer.

Making it longer would require introducing a new state. However, the flipside to this is that a new state means it doesn't have to behave exactly like the shrugger - of particular interest is the possibility for the Looker to instantly revert to a faller if the terrain underneath him is removed, unlike the shrugger who does not.

Is that behavior worthwhile, keeping in mind that a Grenader who removes terrain under his own feet would undergo a thrower->faller transition without ever becoming a shrugger/looker anyway, so it would only become relevant if another lemming does the removal? I think the worthwhileness of this change is ultimately going to determine whether or not a new state gets implemented here, and if one does, there's no reason why the duration can't be extended as well. On the other hand, if that change isn't worthwhile, then I don't feel that adding a new state just to extend the new assignment duration is worth it. This does not, however, preclude making the assignment phase start later (while retaining the same duration as it currently has).

[WillLem]

+1 for either making the assignment phase longer, or at the very least making it start sooner rather than later. As a last resort, leaving as it is would be sort of OK (in that I'd rather have the skill as it is than not have it at all); however, reliance on direction select, highlight lemming, and skill queuing is not a good attribute for a skill to have, so the more of this that can be removed in the physics of the skill, the better.

A "looker" phase would be something unique to these skills, and makes more sense than a shrugger visually. The chances to make it a longer state, make it behave differently to the shrugger, give the thrower skills more character, etc, seem to me like good enough reasons to implement it.

[namida]

reliance on direction select, highlight lemming, and skill queuing is not a good attribute for a skill to have

Throwing skills are only reliant on these if you are spamming them, in the middle of a crowd or a stream of incoming lemmings. This is not a typical use scenario, and generally speaking, a level that requires it is probably not a good one regardless of how easy it is to perform on the UI side of things. So this is a very minor concern at worst.

I appreciate the uniqueness of a different looker state, but I don't accept that in and of itself as being a reason, with these other things being "while we're at it, let's also change so-and-so". I need to see that the benefits, physics-wise, of having the different duration (or other behaviors, which is the more likely angle here) outweigh the hassle of implementing it - which also means adding another extra sprite that custom lemming spritesets must create, don't forget. The aesthetic advantages are the bonus.