Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix

[ericderkovits]

yes I just wanted videos for WillLem to see instead of pngs. I was just confirming Turricans, not trying to contradict them (which I couldn't do even if I wanted).

[kaywhyn]

Yea I should had waited before commenting on your first one, because I later realized there was no contradiction at all (I edited it) Anyway eric, your videos demonstrating all 4 cases are very much appreciated

[Turrican]

Here is a trick , that works in Superlemmini , but it is impossible in Neolemmix.

I have posted pictures in this post ,that showcase the trick ( first three are from Superlemmini , and the last three are from Neolemmix ) , but in my next post , I will also post replays , that showcase it.

So , to perform the trick , assign a miner to a lemming that is in the top of a large terain piece , which has the same shape as shown in the first picture.

Assign it as a digger , in such a postion , that it leaves an 1 pixel wall in front of it ( again , as shown in the first picture ).

When it is low enough , assign it as a builder , in order to have it stop digging. It will stop building because of the 1 pixel wall of course. At the first frame , when it turns around , assign it as a basher , so it will start creating a basher tunnel ( as shown in the third picture ).

In Superlemmini , if you do it correctly , it will also remove a part of the 1 pixel wall as well ( as shown in the third picture in Superlemmini ) , and it will be able to make a complete basher tunnel , that the other lemmings will be able to cross it completely , because that 1 pixel wall will not be an obstacle anymore.

In Neolemmix that's not possible. The basher just can't remove that part of the 1 pixel wall , when you assign it as a basher , at the first frame , when it turns around ( as shown in the third picture from Neolemmix ) . It won't be able to make a complete basher tunnel ( like the one it made in Superlemmini ) , because the 1 pixel wall will be still an obstacle for the other lemmings.

You can also , perform the same trick , by replacing the basher with a miner .In that case the results will be the same. In Superlemmini the miner , again will remove a part of the 1 pixel wall , in Neolemmix it won't be able to remove it.

The reason that this happens , is a small difference in the placement of the terrain-destruction mask of bashers and miners between the two engines.

[Turrican]

Here are for replays , that showcase both the basher and the miner versions , of the trick that I've described in my previous post , for both Neolemmix and Superlemmini.

So if you also want to see how the miner version of the trick works , you can see it from these replays.

The replays have been taken from onml Tame 1. ( For the Superlemmini version , the replay is from Tame 1 from onml remastered version ) .

[Turrican]

Also here are in video form , the basher and the miner version of the trick , that I described in my two previous posts , for both Superlemmini and Neolemmix , uploaded on youtube by ericderkovits :

Basher trick , Superlemmini version :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ2s6unLYS8

Basher trick , Neolemmix version :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4ul3DjBZK8

Miner trick , Superlemmini version :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdPBaNbWNik

Miner trick , Neolemmix version :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7dLD-A8Ml0

[WillLem]

Thanks for uploading these, Turrican. I've added this one to the OP.

P.S. I know you're pushed for time, so pictures and a description are more than sufficient

[ericderkovits]

ok, I wanted to show the difference in NL and SL with the bashers dealing with mild slopes. (Used the same level for both engines. HurtMePlenty 25-Metropolis)

IN Neolemmix bashers CAN bash mild slopes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZYb0nMup9I

IN Superlemmini bashers CAN'T bash mild slopes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh3OrM0--m4

[kaywhyn]

Thanks to eric, another one that I thought of testing: How many digger strokes it takes before a lemming can bash all the way through.

In Neolemmix:

A digger needs to dig at least 5 strokes before he can bash

However, in Superlemmini:

A digger needs to dig at least 6 strokes before he can bash

[WillLem]

ok, I wanted to show the difference in NL and SL with the bashers dealing with mild slopes.

How many digger strokes it takes before a lemming can bash all the way through.

Both of these things are more than likely due to the hi/low-res physics differences; I'll investigate this further before adding them to the OP

[namida]

Both of these things are more than likely due to the hi/low-res physics differences; I'll investigate this further before adding them to the OP

NL's basher is a lot more sensitive than most ports/clones, so it's very likely an actual difference on the "how far to dig" one at least.

[ericderkovits]

ok here are 3 videos showings the lemmings reunion hurt me plenty 25(Metropolis) taking 2 bashers to get thru mild slope(Need there to solve level)

1) Lemmini version (notice it takes 2 bashers to get through(therefore the level has 3 bashers instead of 2 like NL)
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eXx5QzfH8k

2) Superlemmini vesrion (again same as regular lemmini takes 2 bashers to get through thus my SL version also has 3 bashers matching regular Lemmini
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ude7hx3r-Vk

NOTE: since my Superlemmini conversion of Reunion had 1 extra miner (I will now put -1 miner since now the extra miner is not needed). so Now only 1 miner in level instead of 2.

3) Neolemmix version (ok, in NL it does'nt require the 2nd basher to get through the mild slope. Notice in NL there is only 2 bashers not 3 as in Lemmini and Superlemmini)
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4wZGFwrgcU

So since NL and SL(reg. Lemmini) differ in the number of bashers in this level, there is a physics difference with bashers dealing with small slopes(suggest to put in OP). Also see Namida's post above.


Edit: since Reunion is from Icho, I'm sure if you ask him about the basher thing with mild slopes(since he did both in Lemmini and Neolemmix which differs in number of bashers, he can also
confirm this to you. also refer to Reunion's hurt me plenty 25(Metropolis) so he knows what he is looking at.

[kaywhyn]

It's definitely a difference in basher mechanics rather than one concerning low-res vs high-res. Indeed, I tested with NL high-res, and it will still only require one basher for the slope in the level.

Also see this, starting at reply #2: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4871.msg83393#msg83393. This is definitely one where the basher mechanics differences between NL and SL really shows. The level is much easier in NL, but it's considerably harder on SL. The level has since been fixed because it was originally impossible, and Tsyu has since confirmed that the basher mechanics are indeed different in Amiga, which SL seems to emulate in most cases, vs, say, Dos. I haven't played Ron Stodard's pack in Dos yet, but I'm convinced that the level's solution is easier to pull off on Dos. Also the clock is slower, so I'm guessing it's possible to finish with more than a second remaining.

[Turrican]

In Superlemmini you can do the following trick:

Start building with a lemming , then with a second lemming , do the "blocker turns bulder" trick.

If you position the blocker in the correct way , it can turn the builder in such a way , that the other lemmings that are crossing the bridge , won't be able to turn around and follow the builder.

This is possible in Superlemmini , but as far as I know it's not possible in Neolemmix.

This can benefit you , because you can have the crowd contained ( as shown in the pictures and the replay , that I have posted ), while the builder continues to build a large bridge for example , uninterrupted. Now if you want to "release" the crowd , so they can follow the builder , you can do it by using a builder , the way it is shown in the replay , that I have posted.

The replay that I have posted is from Tame 9 , from the Dos conversion of onml.

[ericderkovits]

I already knew about this. And actually I don't like it as it affects levels where one needs to place a blocker at the end of of another builder building where the lemmings need to follow. Especially left-facing ones. In fact I was having trouble with Danger 26 from the newly converted Lemmings Plus 1 pack. In this level it requires 2 spots where one has to place a blocker on the end of builder steps while another lemming is building to turn around the builder.
And it was rather annoying to solve the level.

In NL's version of this same level it's much easier to place blockers at the end of builder steps to turn around the builder while building even left-facing ones.

So as a result of this I like NL"s version of this better.

[WillLem]

If you position the blocker in the correct way , it can turn the builder in such a way , that the other lemmings that are crossing the bridge , won't be able to turn around and follow the builder.

This is possible in Superlemmini , but as far as I know it's not possible in Neolemmix.

So as a result of this I like NL"s version of this better.

I'm about 50/50 with this one; I can see how it's beneficial to use the trick to separate a worker, but then it also ends up costing another builder to free the crowd anyway, so... it's swings and roundabouts, really.

Added this to the OP.