[SUG][PLAYER] Notify user if a pack recommends playing in high-res

[WillLem]

It's become clear from the recent poll that there is not a lot of interest in high-res mode. From the reasons given, it seems that some people simply prefer low-res, whilst others seem unsure of how to best make use of it, or see it as extra work.

The physics reason remains a fairly compelling one to stick with low-res, but even then I'd assert that it doesn't make a massive amount of difference. I have played in hr mode since its 12.8 inception and have never noticed any problems directly relating to pixel precision during gameplay. In particular, the hr sprites were carefully designed to fit their low-res masks - I should know!

Since there have been other high-res lemmings engines (WinLemm, (Super)Lemmini, Mac, PS2), I'd even go so far as to say that low-res doesn't give a visual tactical advantage either, since the ability to judge things just by looking is based on experience rather than explicit visual information, and most players are likely to have encountered at least one of the aforementioned engines (and thus experienced high-res lemmings at some point). By extension, playing in hr mode for any length of time will allow the player the adjust to the new resolution anyway.

All of this being the case, I'd like to put forward the option for creators to specify a resolution in the level files, meaning that NL will engage high-res whilst playing that level recommend that a particular resolution be used.

If that's not do-able, then how about for packs (this might even be better, since it then wouldn't have to be done for each level individually)?

Designers may spend a lot of time creating high-resolution graphics in order to take advantage of this feature, only to find that the majority of people are playing it in low-res, and thus missing out on their work. If certain levels forced hr mode (and then it reverted to player choice afterwards) specified a recommendation chosen by the designer, then

a) designers would know that their work is being more likely to be viewed and played as intended, and
b) players who normally use low-res mode would be encouraged to appreciate high-res mode occasionally.

[namida]

They wouldn't be "encouraged" to use high-res mode, they'd be forced to use it against their preference.

I'll also note that one of the guarantees given when high-res was implemented was specifically that it would not be forced, and that those who prefer low-res can continue to use it.

I also strongly suspect that if such an option were to be implemented, those who prefer to avoid high-res are more likely to simply not play packs that force it. Doubly so if the reasons are performance-related.

By all means, ask people to use high-resolution mode to play your packs. I could even consider an option to make NeoLemmix suggest (but not force), in a way that is not naggy (perhaps a one-off popup the first time they play a level from the pack), for certain packs that they be played in high-res. But forcing it is outright not going to happen.

I've left the topic open, with the title adjusted to this alternate proposal, as I think that is a worthwhile idea.

[WillLem]

They wouldn't be "encouraged" to use high-res mode, they'd be forced to use it against their preference

Note that my use of the word "force" was perhaps mis-placed - I should perhaps have worded it as "allow levels to engage high-res mode, with the option for the user to turn it off" as that's closer to what I actually meant. I've updated the OP to reflect this, following your title change.

So, when the player first opens the level, it will automatically engage high res mode, but if the user then disengages it, it won't re-engage afterwards. In any case...

By all means, ask people to use high-resolution mode to play your packs. I could even consider an option to make NeoLemmix suggest... for certain packs that they be played in high-res

...this is a better idea. At least those who don't bother to read the levelpack OP will receive a specific prompt, and so will be aware of the level designer's preferences.

PLEASE NOTE that I wouldn't even be suggesting such things if there wasn't such a woeful level of interest in high-resolution mode to begin with

[namida]

Note that my use of the word "force" was perhaps mis-placed - I should perhaps have worded it as "allow levels to engage high-res mode, with the option for the user to turn it off" as that's closer to what I actually meant.

It doesn't matter what word is used to describe it; what's happening is still the same. There will be no case in which a level or pack can automatically make changes to a user's high-res setting, whether or not this lasts beyond the level / pack or not, whether the user can take extra steps to override it or not. A prompt that asks the user, displayed at most once per pack, is the furthest I am willing to take this.

In general, if a feature is not liked, trying to force it on people will at best achieve nothing, and at worst make it even more disliked. It is quite simply not the correct way to go about addressing the lack of interest in high-res.

[WillLem]

As stated, I agree with your suggestion and I have modified the OP accordingly.

[namida]

Since there have been other high-res lemmings engines (WinLemm, (Super)Lemmini, Mac, PS2), I'd even go so far as to say that low-res doesn't give a visual tactical advantage either, since the ability to judge things just by looking is based on experience rather than explicit visual information, and most players are likely to have encountered at least one of the aforementioned engines (and thus experienced high-res lemmings at some point). By extension, playing in hr mode for any length of time will allow the player the adjust to the new resolution anyway.

I'd note that these engines have high-res physics too, not just high-res graphics. NeoLemmix is a unique case with the high-res graphics + low-res physics combo.

[WillLem]

NeoLemmix is a unique case with the high-res graphics + low-res physics combo.

Is there ever a situation in which this might be an issue?

[Proxima]

If it were carelessly done, yes. On Mac Lemmings, some of the thorns in the dirt style turn back the lemmings when they should be able to clamber over them, because of the way the high-res graphics are converted to a low-res physics map. (This is one of two reasons why "The Steel Mines of Kessel" is about 1000 times harder than it should be on the Mac.) This wouldn't ever happen in NeoLemmix, which does things differently -- every terrain piece is required to have a low-res version, and the low-res version is used to generate the physics map.

[WillLem]

In general, if a feature is not liked, trying to force it on people will at best achieve nothing, and at worst make it even more disliked. It is quite simply not the correct way to go about addressing the lack of interest in high-res.

Agreed: my initial idea was perhaps a tad drastic, I admit it!

Having helped to create high-res mode, I naturally want to try and promote it; your suggestion is a much better way to achieve this, for sure.

because of the way the high-res graphics are converted to a low-res physics map. (This is one of two reasons why "The Steel Mines of Kessel" is about 1000 times harder than it should be on the Mac.)

I thought Mac lemmings was high-res physics + graphics. The low + high combo is unique to NeoLemmix, according to namida.

Out of interest, though, what are the other reasons that Kessel is much harder on Mac?

This wouldn't ever happen in NeoLemmix, which does things differently -- every terrain piece is required to have a low-res version, and the low-res version is used to generate the physics map.

OK, so - allow me to rephrase my question: is there ever a situation where low-res physics + high-res graphics would be an issue in NeoLemmix?

[Proxima]

I thought Mac lemmings was high-res physics + graphics.

No, it's the same as NL, except that it generates the physics directly from the high-res graphics.

Out of interest, though, what are the other reasons that Kessel is much harder on Mac?

The original (Amiga) level has 100 lemmings and requires 90%. On the Mac, when they adjusted levels to have at most 80 lemmings, levels with a high save requirement (e.g. lose 2) kept the number allowed to lose the same, while levels requiring 90% or less kept the percentage the same. So "Kessel" only allows you to lose eight... with bombers as the only destructive skill and three more thorns that must either be bombed or built over.

(DOS also has a limit of 80 lemmings, but avoids this problem by special-casing this level; it only requires saving 75%!)

[namida]

This wouldn't ever happen in NeoLemmix, which does things differently -- every terrain piece is required to have a low-res version, and the low-res version is used to generate the physics map.

OK, so - allow me to rephrase my question: is there ever a situation where low-res physics + high-res graphics would be an issue in NeoLemmix?

As mentioned, it's not always as easy to judge distances when you have to count it in units of 2 pixels. Even more so, it's not always clear which pixel to start from. These can of course be addressed by invoking CPM, but CPM is not meant to be something that needs to be constantly relied on.

There's no technical issue to be worried about, other than slowdown in certain situations (which could also occur with large enough levels even in low-res), but there are visual concerns. Not enough that high-res is not viable to have, but significant enough that it should not be forced.

[Dullstar]

If this were to be implemented, I want an option to silence the warning, because I'm going to keep low-res mode on.

It sounds like the "force" option is pretty much dead, but if the force option is ever implemented, I will likely create and release a utility capable of mass-stripping this setting from levels.

[WillLem]

If this were to be implemented, I want an option to silence the warning, because I'm going to keep low-res mode on.

How else would you suggest that level designers make players aware of how they would prefer people to experience the levels and styles they've likely spent many hours creating?

This may never come to a truly satisfactory conclusion, but it's a question worth asking, especially since NeoLemmix is, at its core, an engine which promotes user-created content.

It sounds like the "force" option is pretty much dead, but if the force option is ever implemented, I will likely create and release a utility capable of mass-stripping this setting from levels.

Why even say this? The force option has not only been clearly rejected, but I have also explicitly retracted my suggestion, having agreed that it's far too drastic a way to promote high-res.

[namida]

If this were to be implemented, I want an option to silence the warning, because I'm going to keep low-res mode on.

Keeping in mind that packs that use this would likely be rare in the first place, and that it would be set to only display the recommendation once per pack, do you still feel an option to disable this notification would be necessary? If so, would a "don't show this again" option in the popup be sufficient?

(EDIT: To be clear, I'm thinking "once per pack, ever (unless you delete your save data because of course NL can't keep track after that)". Not just "once per pack per session".)

but if the force option is ever implemented,

Forced hi-res is never going to happen.

[Strato Incendus]

How else would you suggest that level designers make players aware of how they would prefer people to experience the levels and styles they've likely spent many hours creating?

You can write a recommendation for high-res mode in the opening post of the thread in which you upload your pack. That's it.

I think you've already done that for Lemminas anyway, though .

especially since NeoLemmix is, at its core, an engine which promotes user-created content.

Yes, but the engine is there to enable the player to play it - not to enable the designer to design it. That's what the editor does, but usually, nobody except the pack author will open someone else's level file in the editor (not because it were forbidden, just because there is no need for it, aside from maybe curiosity or looking for inspirations for someone's own levels).

Thus, NeoLemmix mainly exists to allow players to play more levels than the original games could offer to them. Not for the authors to express themselves. And I say that as someone who probably has created more levels than he has played.

The player is your "customer" (or maybe more comparable to an artist's unpaying audience, but either way, the creator is dependent on them being there, because otherwise a creator would be the only one to solve his or her levels. Which isn't really that much fun if you know the solution already. We play our own levels to test them and create working replays, not for the cognitive challenge). You can't make any decisions on how they should enjoy your "product".

This is inherent in the game and actually becomes most apparent when it comes to backroutes: While there is a component of "authorial intent" in every pack, meaning that the author determines the intended solution and can constantly rework levels to enforce said solutions, as long as those solutions aren't sufficiently enforced by the level, any alternative solutions are equally valid. It's not like NeoLemmix had a built-in feature to make the level fail unless the solution found by the player matched that specified by the author, after all. This would be a very powerful tool to stop backroutes and enforce intended solutions, wouldn't it?

This is of course an absurd and extreme example, but I'm using it just to illustrate how far "enforcing the author's wishes on the player" could potentially be taken if authorial intent, i.e. the author's wishes, were the prime criterium for custom levels.

Instead, the fact that new backroutes constantly pop up demonstrates that NeoLemmix is much closer to "death of the author" than to "authorial intent". (And sometimes, there is indeed "digital death" of the author, if the creator of a given pack is no longer active on the forums, or at least is no longer maintaining this specific pack.)

Once the pack has been released, any solution to a level that isn't blocked by the terrain and objects inside it is valid. Any way of playing the pack that allows the player to solve the level is valid, too. Whether someone likes to play at maximum zoom, at minimum zoom for maximum overview, or whether they like to play every level in clear-physics mode . The author simply no longer has any influence on it. And even if a level designer goes back to fix a backrouted level, no player is under any obligation to resolve that level. They've already "beaten" the pack author once, and if it was only due to the author's own mistake, because they overlooked something.



You put a lot of effort into the high-res-graphics, we acknowledge that. I put a lot of effort in the music for Lemmings World Tour, yet of course, it was Flopsy's prerogative to exchange the tracks for his own playlist when LPing the pack. And with an LP, the creator at least has a slightly more understandable motivation to see all of his effort showcased, because it's going to be on YouTube for everyone to watch. Regarding how regular forum members play your or my packs in private, I don't have any influence on that, nor would I want to have it.

For example, if somebody switches off the music in Lemmings World Tour entirely, e.g. during the Noisemaker rank because the constant repetition of those five ONML tracks is getting on their nerves, I completely understand! I really just wanted to start the main rotation off on level 01 of a rank instead of introducing it somewhere in the middle. I'm not completely happy with the way the music rotation for the Noisemaker rank turned out, but it was the optimal way I could think of.

So in your case, you can ask people who have already announced they want to LP a pack of yours to do so in high-res mode. But to me, that's somewhat of a "little finger, whole arm" scenario, because putting in the effort to make in LP of someone's pack (considering the few views LP videos of custom Lemmings packs get) is already a big favour on part of the person playing the pack.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference.