[NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]

[Gronkling]

Level 9 felt fine, the shimmier part of level 29 felt very good though the rest seemed too simple. Also when I give a it just means I don't have any particular comments, its just a good level.

[namida]

More progress

Soft 16 - This level was one of the easiest so far, but it's still a nice level. I very much like the walker pickup  / preplaced blocker combo! Also, this is one of my least favorite music tracks normally, but I really like your version!
Soft 17 - Okay, this one was even easier. Also, compared to all the other music so far which has a rock feel to it, this one felt far more country. Nice change.
Soft 18 - Also relatively easy, though harder than the last two. I managed to avoid the Fencer; it could also be used to avoid the need for the Stacker (or both could be excluded at the same time via very good timing). Also, how come it went to Orig_01 again and not Ohno_01 here?

Currently stumped on 19. I get the general idea but can't quite figure out how to put it all together (no hints yet please).

[kaywhyn]

O.o Soft 19 is a really good level. I too was initially stumped, and I remember giving up for the night back when I pretested the pack, but shortly after I exited out I had a realization and quickly went back and tried out the idea I had in mind, and sure enough it was indeed the missing link that prevented me from solving it. Based on my experiences, it must be the very start that has you stuck, because once you figure that out the rest is very easy. You can do this, namida!

[Strato Incendus]

Alright, second update time!

Level 9 felt fine, the shimmier part of level 29 felt very good though the rest seemed too simple.

Thanks for your feedback!

I did think back and forth about this, but it dawned on me that if I don't fix these two levels now, I will regret it down the road, as more and more people will go with alternative solutions and nobody will ever perform the intended one.

It feels a little weird to fix these two levels now after I had been more lenient on them during testing. But at least I still only break my two testers' solutions at this point, plus Gronkling's - instead of everyone's.

So, sorry to my testers, but at least now you also still have at least one new "tough nut" to enjoy cracking! Because "'tis the season", isn't it?

And now, without further ado, here is the

Changelog

Soft 05: added a talisman for saving everyone (David's solution)
Soft 17: raised the steel blocks at the beginning a little so that there's no terrain sticking out above them
Soft 19: lowered the ceiling at one point to prevent platforming over everything (should only break ericderkovits's solution, unless namida is trying the same thing right now )

Loud 01: talisman changed to gold because it's clearly much more difficult to obtain - nothing changed about the requirements, though
Loud 09: added steel to prevent any and all shortcuts directly down to the water and adjusted the one-way arrows a little for improved aesthetics (namida will appreciate it once he gets there, I'm sure! )
Loud 14: added a talisman based on Gronkling's solution
Loud 15: Stoner made a pickup skill as well now
Loud 20: nothing actually changed here; I tried to fix it by raising the fire traps, but that would have broken the intended solution as well, so I had to reverse the change. That's the only reason for the new "last-modified" date
Loud 29: Shimmier made a pickup skill

Responses to namida (Soft 16-18)

16: intended.
17: I agree this looked to easy, which is why I made the above-explained minor fix to break the beginning part . It's still a largely open-ended flow control level, though.
18: Closer to intended than anyone before! Finally someone who uses the "Miner going through" tactic again. I'm glad this level doesn't require it, though, given the apparent unpopularity (in comparison) of Soft 08...

[namida]

Spoiler

18: Closer to intended than anyone before! Finally someone who uses the "Miner going through" tactic again. I'm glad this level doesn't require it, though, given the apparent unpopularity (in comparison) of Soft 08...

I think in this case, it's not so bad. You're not trying to set it up over a long range, spanning multiple bridges, without much indication of where they should go, etc. Rather, it's quite clear how this should work out, and there's decent room for error.

[namida]

Re-solves / continuing

Soft 4 - Got the talisman. Not too impressed with it.
Soft 5 - Got this talisman too. A bit more interesting here.
Soft 17 - Re-solved, and this feels even more backroute-y.
Soft 19 - Solved now. I was overcomplicating it before, if anything, I think.
Soft 20 - Middle of the road difficutly-wise, but a very nice level.
Soft 21 - I do like the overall solution, but the execution - crowd control in particular - was needlessly messy.
Soft 22 - I chuckled a bit at the intro text. That aside, this solution might not be intended, it feels a bit too precision-reliant.
Soft 23 - This has got to be a backroute.
Soft 24 - Either I backrouted this too, or "all possible uses of the Shimmier" even includes "as a pure decoy skill".
Soft 25 - Music sequence break again? Anyway, this one might be a backroute too, as I didn't need the pickup skill.

[ericderkovits]

Ok, I had to resolve 2 levels that broke, soft 17 and 19

I already knew soft 19 was going to change in the update so I solved it even before the update. (due to platforming high up)

Also I got the Talisman for soft 5, but I saved 61 because there was a cloner in the level.

Also I solved the 1st 10 levels so far of Loud, and yes only level 2 was hard among the 1st 10 of Loud. (I also got the Talisman for Loud 8)
Of course I still can't get the Talisman for Loud 1, just too difficult. And the Update didn't break my Loud 10 replay.

Anyways here are my 3 levels of soft.(2 resolves + soft 5 Talisman(61 saved))
             and the 1st 10 levels of Loud replays

[David]

Strato Incendus : Thank you very much for these personalized explanations. I redid Soft level 2 and I think I found the expected solution (see replay !). I hadn't thought of using the glider when the shimmier was hooked. This is stupid ! But... I like my idea of using the stoner when the shimmier is jumping.

I continued up to level 14 (out of order... ), and honestly find the levels pretty difficult overall (see replays !)

For fun, I took a look at the first 5 levels of the hardcore rank and I passed levels 1, 3 and 4, I found them quite easy (I have the replays, but I'll post them later ...). Bye !

[Strato Incendus]

Responses to ericderkovits (Loud 03-10)

I already gave you the feedback for the first two Loud levels, so I'll continue with level 3:

03: Intended.
04: Intended.
05: You can use a Shimmier to make a Climber jump off the wall? The Climber is actually intended as a red herring skill. I'm fine with this alternative solution (the Bomber can't be used, obviously, because you have to save everyone). I just never would have thought this was possible.
06: Intended.
07: Valid alternative solution! The intended one is pretty hard to enforce.
08: Valid alternative solution.
09: Yes, this is much closer to the intended solution now! Just the way you prevented the crowd (and the returning Climber) from falling into the Digger shaft is a little different, but just a fine alternative approach.
10: Close enough to the intended solution.

Your solutions to the re-solved Soft levels are fine as well! Good to know it's even possible to save everyone on Soft 05, including the Cloner.
I won't make that an additional talisman, though .

Responses to namida (up to Soft 25)

Soft 04: Didn't mean to impress anyone with this ; I just wanted to make the requirement slightly tighter, and at least you have to fiddle with the release rate in some way (or let the crowd pass first, which most likely also entails cranking up the release rate).
Soft 05: You're the first one to actually use the Dolly-Dimple strategy, which is indeed part of the intended solution!
Soft 17: Yes, but this is actually closer to the intended solution than what you did before. I'm considering removing the second Fencer, because a lot of people seem to use it for mere stalling, and the intended solution doesn't actually require it... I just liked to provide 2 of every skill here.
Soft 19: Intended.
Soft 20: Intended.
Soft 21: Intended.
Soft 22: That's a neat way of taking the entire crowd down to the ground right at the start, and then penning them in with the Blocker. Nice alternative solution!
Soft 23: Yes, it is a backroute; that stalactite in the middle needs a steel chunk in addition to the higher fire pit I implemented last time.
Soft 24: This is actually closer to the intended solution than what anyone else has done so far, because you fenced from the right side, with the pioneer. The Shimmier is just there to help you get over the stack at the beginning, by having the lemming grab the staircase and lifting himself onto the stack.
Soft 25: Just slightly more skill efficient than the intended solution, no problem!

I also need to correct my previous statements to some of the solutions to Soft 25:

Soft 25

Now that I think about it, using the Stacker pickup skill was indeed necessary on all of those solutions.

Not to save the pioneer himself, but to prevent the crowd (who are all Climbers as well) from going into the trap on the right.

namida's solution to this level is actually the first one which doesn't use the Stacker pickup skill.

Regarding music choices:

The standard rotation emulates that of original lemmings, i.e. restarts at Soft 18. However, whenever I used an ONML tileset, I resorted to one of the ONML tracks, which played throughout the Noisemaker rank of Lemmings World Tour.

Responses to David's new replays later in a second comment!

[Strato Incendus]

Next update is here, because we had three further backroutes with yesterday's version:

Changelog

Soft 11: added more steel because David had managed to just barely dig around the steel that had been present already to still land on the exit platform from the right side. Then I added the same amount of steel on the right side of the level, just for aesthetics, to keep things symmetrical.
Soft 17: Removed one Fencer since the intended solution doesn't use it anyway, and people were using it for stalling. Sadly, this breaks the nice "2 of everything" pattern, but I hope the level will become a little more restrictive this way.
Soft 23: added a steel block to the stalactite

Responses to David (Soft 02 + 08 - 14)

02: This is the intended solution this time.
08: Intended.
09: Fine alternative solution.
10: Intended.
11: Severe backroute (see above), fixed with the new update.
12: The more skill-efficient of the two intended solutions.
13: This is similar to the "weird" solution namida found. You saved one Basher, but used every other skill, so this is still fine.
14: Skill efficient but still okay.

For fun, I took a look at the first 5 levels of the hardcore rank and I passed levels 1, 3 and 4, I found them quite easy (I have the replays, but I'll post them later ...). Bye !

Yes, Hardcore 03 and 04 were some of the first levels created for this pack, so they're much easier than what I came up with towards the end.

Since there's still somewhat of a music-genre split between ranks, it's a little like in Lemmings 2: The Tribes, where you have increasing difficulty within each Tribe / rank from the first to the last level, but not necessarily always from the last levels of one rank to the first levels of the next one.

Some of the late Heavy levels (which were created much later than those early Hardcore levels) are probably harder than the begining of Hardcore... but trust me, Hardcore is not going to stay like that for long.

Also, Hardcore 04 in particular might be another one of those "unfixable" levels, at least for adept players, because they'll always find any unfixable backroutes - whereas for average players, they can still pose a challenge, because not all backroutes are equally easy to discover.

For example, David was the very first person to backroute Soft 11, nobody else had even considered doing that.

[ericderkovits]

ok, again my soft 17 broke for the 2nd time with the new update(removing 1 fencer)

no other levels failed(all passed with mass replay check)

Here is my re-resolved soft 17

[kaywhyn]

Once again, all the many replays that have been coming in for the last several days continues to amaze me at how much this pack is currently being played. Even more amazing is how various people have still found ways to backroute a lot of the levels despite having a few pre-testers for the pack This confirms to me that even after a pack is pre-tested, backroutes will surely still show up in some way, as it can just be a case that the pre-testers simply didn't catch them. With only 2-3 of us pre-testing, this was bound to happen anyway. With more pre-testers, each with differing level solving skills, I'm sure there wouldn't be as much backroutes, although it's not much help if several of them happen to find the same solutions. The difference is that the less experienced players will probably be less likely to come up with the same solutions that the experts will see more easily.

I haven't seen a lot of the replays, but I have been reading the level feedback and have commented on them accordingly. Keep up the great work, guys!  

[Gronkling]

Finished rank 3! Some tricky levels here, probably a bit harder overall than rank 1, though not hugely so. However the number of skills I've been saving has increased again, there was only 2 where I didn't save extra.

Spoiler

• Saved 3 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Saved 2 skills, though it doesn't really matter here, this feels more like a rank 1 level designed to introduce the jumper than rank 3
• Saved 2 skills, this solution can be easily adapted to save an extra lemming instead
• Saved 1 skill, 3 extra lemmings
• An oddly easy one, but nice theme
• Saved 3 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Didn't use pickup skill
• Saved 3 skills
• Saved 6 skills with a very backroutey solution
• Only used 2 of the shimmiers
• Saved 1 skill, there's some nice looking levels in this rank
• Saved 6 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Saved 2 skills. Usually not a fan of zombies at all but this one was OK
• Saved 6 skills
• Saved 4 skills
• 
• Saved 2 skills with a messy solution
• Saved 7 skills
• Saved 3 skills, 3 extra lemmings
• Saved 3 skills, 1 extra lemming, but a tricky one
• Saved 5 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Saved 1 skill, this was the hardest level yet
• Saved 4 skills
• Saved 1 skill, 1 extra lemming, didn't really enjoy this one
• Saved 3 skills
• Saved 3 skills, 1 extra lemming, felt too easy
• Saved 1 skill
• Saved 2 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Saved 3 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Saved 2 skills

[Strato Incendus]

Since Gronkling seems to be breezing through this pack, it shouldn't come as a surprise that we already have the next update!

Changelog (only affects the Heavy rank)

01: added upward arrows
03: added a bronze talisman for saving everyone
08: added small amounts of steel
09: added a single steel block
10: added some steel on "Sandman's" left foot (from the player's perspective)
12: added steel (partly overlapped and therefore overwritten by a new block of terrain (which looks the same as the one before), because I only needed a small additional stripe of steel). Finally fixed this notorious backroute which I had never seen a way of dealing with for a long time!
15: added steel
17: a purely cosmetic change: added a Finnish flag! So that hopefully, a couple more people (specifically, the Finns here on the forums ) might get the mythological reference...

This confirms to me that even after a pack is pre-tested, backroutes will surely still show up in some way

Well, I could have told you that long ago, since I was one of the testers for United... IchoTolot sent us so many updates during the test phase that at some point I lost track of what the current version was (aside from the fact that I wasn't able to solve pretty much anything beyond the first rank anyway ). And even still, if you look at the Lemmings United thread right now, it has 22 pages and is currently at version 12.9 (after starting at version 1.0). So you can already see how many updates have been made to this pack due to backroute fixes even long after its release.

Responses to Gronkling (Heavy rank)

01: Semi-backroute. I used to accept things like this as alternative solutions, but I'm really starting to feel I need to be more strict about my intended solutions.
02: Intended. Indeed, this is the Jumper introduction level. I believe you're indeed one of the people who wasn't active during the time of its introduction? Because I'd figure unless somebody was here as the mechanics were being discussed, they wouldn't necessarily know about things such as wall-jumping (on and off walls) and that Jumpers can transition into Shimmiers. Even though it should be clear that no completely new player should play LOA, a scenario I consider more likely is a player who is experienced with the classic 8 skills. Such people still need levels to familiarise themselves with all the mechanics of the new skills. Granted, such players would most likely get completely overwhelmed by Soft 02, specifically. But once they've overcome that initial hurdle, Heavy 02 pretty much features all the basic Jumper knowledge crammed into one level. And apparently, it succeeds at enforcing what it set out to do!
03: Well, you saved both - the skills and the extra lemming. Indeed, by reversing Digger and Miner usage compared to the intended solution, it's possible to save everyone. Maybe I should make that a bronze talisman. It's not that hard to find this superior solution, but it should entail some kind of reward.
04: What a nice alternative solution! In the intended one, it's not actually necessary to platform over the water pit.
05: Yes, this is a little breather, but you still had to use all the skills to cover this comparatively large landscape. So I hope that means it's not a complete pushover.
06: That was very skill-efficient, but a lot of the central tricks were still there, including the "jump off the pillar over to the exit chamber and immediately transition into a Shimmier". I love that stuff!
07: Well done, you saved the pickup skill because you've found an even better method of containing the crowd than I did! Never knew you could use a 1-frame Basher to create an increase that only a Climber could overcome. The right-hand side of the level (reverse Miner to enable climbing etc.) was done exactly as intended.
08: Semi-backroute. The part with the Climbers, the Bomber, and the Glider on the left was intended. Then however you mined where you were supposed to use a Fencer to prevent the neutrals from walking out. That cost you an extra Builder to seal up the gap. Also, you had to keep an eye on the Climber to prevent him from going up to the ceiling and dying. In theory, this should have cost you more skills, yet you still came out using fewer skills than in the intended solution, including no Shimmiers at all. I would like to keep allowing this, but I don't think I should.
09: Huge backroute, just bombing straight through the one-way arrows. Easy enough fix though, with just a single further block of steel. I can't extend the one-way arrows all the way down to the bottom, as you will hopefully see on your next attempt...
10: Backroute. Technically, it should be equally valid to go along the left side as it is to go along the right side, but that misses the main thing that makes this level somewhat interesting. So now Sandman has to wear a steel shackle on his one foot.
11: That's a nice alternative solution, saved you one Platformer - that's not the one you need to save for the talisman, though .
12: Backroute. This used to be another unfixable level during testing - and of course, you were among those who found the backroute. But I think now I've finally found a way to fix it! Can't believe I've been overlooking it for all this time !
13: Well, pretty much your only task on this level is to find some way to deal with the zombies, even if you didn't make them "hit the floor" .
14: Mmh, okay, apparently it's still possible to solve this entire level without using the right side. It's not too far off from the intended solution per se, though, and unless I resort to excessive pickup-skill placement, I don't really see a way of changing this. For the time being, I just assume the level has enough "entropy" that other people will indeed try to use the right side, or even feel they have to in order to complete the level at all. At least that would be my prediction based on what I've seen during the testing phase.
15: Semi-backroute. I can't stop the Digger shenanigans you did at the start, since Diggers will always be able to go through horizontal one-way arrows. But I can cut off the Miner shortcut at the end, even though it required me to try several different ways to do so without breaking my own solution.
16: Almost intended. That obscure trick of the Builder-Digger-Builder turnaround isn't actually required here. But I always appreciate it very much when I see it! One of my testers even showed me yet another alternative solution where a Climber actually climbs through one of those horizontal bars on the bottom right .
17: Wonderfully obscure, even more so than the intended solution!
18: Well, that's a creative way of freeing a Blocker if I've ever seen one. I'm not sure I can prevent this, not even sure if I want to.
19: Close enough to intended, hit all the "important notes" .
20: Also close enough. I liked how you trapped one Climber by stoning the other on the wall! I knew that was possible, since it happened to me a couple of times by accident, while I was testing levels I had made for Lemmings: Hall of Fame. But I never actually used it for an intended solution.
21: Yes! Got the main trick of making the Basher go through! At the same time, this Basher was very self-reliant, by turning around on the Stoner and then digging while already facing to the left. The intended solution is more precise, because the Basher has to somewhat rely on the timing of the other worker lemmings. Glad to see the main trick can be enforced here without all the other parts necessarily having to be that precise!
22: Close to intended. Bouncing the Miner off the Blocker, cancelling the Miner who frees the crowd by having him drop into the gaps of the "gate", that's all there. You used some pretty whacky techniques to get the Glider up in the updrafts! The intended solution also involves (yet again) a Miner going over a Builder staircase (the one that frees the crowd). But you still only saved 1 skill with your slightly different solution, so that's completely fine.
23: This is the simplified intended version. The complete intended version is very precise, so I decided not to enforce it strictly, if it even would have been possible. That's why you can have comparatively many skills remaining on this particular one.

24: Nice alternative solution, only saving the Swimmer. For the intended solution, it's actually the Shimmier that isn't strictly necessary - yet for your solution, it was, because if you had platformed across the long gap from the left, either the lemming would have turned around and gone to the exit too early, or you couldn't even have closed the gap because you also used a Builder when constructing the bridge from the right eventually (and that Builder would have been up in the air instead of properly connecting with the terrain, so the crowd from the right couldn't have walked onto the bridge if you had built from the left). Therefore you needed the Shimmier to get the lemming over to the stash of money first. Good thing I left the Shimmier in there - you're welcome! I'm thankful for any alternative solution I see on this one, too, though - because once again, the intended one is very precise. So anytime somebody finds a satisfying alternative that I can comfortably allow to co-exist with the intended solution, I can rest with a clear conscience!

25: Close to intended. This is another level where the Climber was supposed to be a red herring that actively backfires in your face when you use it. In this case, you prevented this by digging into the ground halfway under the stack. That by itself could be prevented by simply raising the steel so that you can't dig. However, thanks to ericderkovits's solution to Loud 05, I now know it would still be possible to turn around the Cilmber in several ways at this point, both involving the Shimmier:

- at a certain point while climbing the stack, you can make the Climber turn around and actually shimmy along thin air, even though there's no ceiling (maybe this is a bug? )
- even if that behaviour did not exist, though: in this particular case, because the Climber is also a Glider, you could still have him jump up right in front of the stack as a mere Reacher, upon which he would Glider-bump against the stack and turn around as well

Therefore, in short, there is no need to make any changes to the terrain here because it still wouldn't result in the Climber being an actual red-herring skill. And simply cutting the Climber altogether... not, the alternative solutions I've seen featuring it, including yours, were way too awesome for that!

26: Okay, apparently you have enough Builders that you can just stall the lemmings upstairs and let the pioneer die down below, instead of having to get him back up again... so he doesn't actually go "to Hell and back". What a pity! But such are the options when the save requirement is a little more lenient, and the level designer tries to enforce saving a single particular lemming... it almost never works.
27: Open-ended. But wow, you actually managed to spare 1 Builder on this one. What's most limited on this level are of course the destructive skills, and that poses the main challenge.
28: Open-ended as well. It doesn't really matter if you lose lemmings as Bombers, as Blockers remaining at the end of the level, or as lemmings that fall into the abyss or go into a trap. You simply have a fixed amount you can lose, and need to guide the rest to the exit across the three David stars in the most efficient way possible with what limited skills you have at your disposal.
29: Close enough to intended. You contained the crowd between Stackers so that you could free them with a Basher, instead of platforming over the stack at the end, as it is intended. But the main part here is disarming all the flower traps, setting up the anti-splat pad, and platforming across the water, obviously, which was all done as intended.
30: Nice alternative solution! This is the first time I see anyone leading the right crowd all the way over to the left side.

Response to ericderkovits (Soft 17)

This seems much closer to intended now. I still can't really seem to enforce the parts on the bottom layer of the level, but I guess that's fine.

Sorry your solutions seem to be among those that I apparently have to break the most often right now. But rest assured that David also discovered some pretty nasty backroutes, some of which even my testers would never have come up with. So a lot of his replays (considering there haven't actually been that many by him yet, just in comparison ;D ) have already ended up on my chopping block as well.

[kaywhyn]

Well, I could have told you that long ago, since I was one of the testers for United... IchoTolot sent us so many updates during the test phase that at some point I lost track of what the current version was (aside from the fact that I wasn't able to solve pretty much anything beyond the first rank anyway ). And even still, if you look at the Lemmings United thread right now, it has 22 pages and is currently at version 12.9 (after starting at version 1.0). So you can already see how many updates have been made to this pack due to backroute fixes even long after its release.

Yes, but this is expected since the aim was to make the levels as backroute proof as possible, especially in regards to the prize for completely solving all of United with intended/acceptable solutions. Also, the difference between the amount of levels of United from LOA is more than 100, so the many updates for United were definitely to be expected! And yes, I'm quite surprised that even josh was still able to backroute some levels even after all my solutions were accepted by Icho. Therefore, I think I shouldn't be surprised anymore if more still manage to come up from other players who are currently playing through United. However, the number of updates needed after I completely solved the pack wasn't as much as when I played through the pack. For example, only a few updates were needed for the War rank for a few levels, and similarly for Genocide.

Here, though, I think it's more to do with the various skill levels of the players. Less experienced players will likely backroute levels in different ways than the experts, who generally will be able to catch them more easily. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I still stand by my statement that I don't think I have seen so much replays/feedback come in for a pack in the first few days since a pack's release. I think from what I've seen the first set of replays/feedback for a pack generally doesn't come in until at least a week or so has passed since release. Guess I'll have to look back at the level pack topics and see if that has indeed been the case. At least this has always been the impression that I've gathered regarding packs getting replays/feedback.