[NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]

[ericderkovits]

ok here are my final levels of Hardcore 21-30.

Hard to say which level was the hardest. I think most of these 10 were not that hard(even level 30-although I used all my builders and destructive skills)

I think the Hardcore rank levels were actually easier than some in the loud and heavy ranks.

Also got the Talisman for level 26. So definitely the hardest Talisman in the pack was Loud 1(so now pack is finished including getting all the Talismans)

[Strato Incendus]

Congratulations on beating the entire pack, eric! No backroutes on these last ten levels!

Responses to your solutions (Hardcore 21 - 30)

21: Close to intended. Only the way you stopped the Fencer and the lemming coming from above at the end was a little different, I used a Bomber there.
22: Close to intended. You just cancelled the Miner a little earlier so that he didn't have to jump over to where the crowd was being contained. Usually, that Basher at the end re-frees the pioneer along with the crowd, because he gets trapped inside the anchor as well.
23: This is a fine alternative solution. Especially the end part is still as intended. After all the backroutes this level has been plagued by during testing, this is much more than I was daring to hope for!
24: This is very similar to the alternative solution kaywhyn found. If you didn't find it that hard, good on you! It seems like he struggled with this quite a bit, and he is one of our most adept solvers. Though that may have been the mental-state effect at work in his case, since he was one of my testers, and thus has played several previous iterations of this level, finding solutions (=backroutes) in the process that no longer work now. That may have made it harder for him to find the intended or his alternative solution than for somebody who approaches this level for the first time.
25: Very close to intended. You lost quite a few lemmings at the end who splatted just in front of the updraft. But that's one of the reasons why the save requirement is comparatively lenient. I used a couple of Jumpers to get the pioneer further ahead when platforming over the updraft. You also saved one Basher, which you could have used to bash through the pillar to get the pioneer back to bash through the one-way arrows. Somehow though, nobody has felt the need to do this yet.
26: That was an interesting choice to create a Digger shaft to allow the other Climbers to access the relevant section of the level more quickly. You're also only the second person to use a second Miner tunnel to get the lemmings over the first one, instead of a Basher tunnel.
27: Very close to intended, just the way you contained the crowd was a little different.
28: Very close to intended, I just didn't know it was possible to do the Miner work on the left side with a Climber without having him splat at some point. But you took care of that problem by digging and cancelling the Digger, thus making the wall no longer climbable. You used all the skills in the process, so this is a perfectly fine solution!
29: Very close to intended; I stoned the Climber at the end instead of a lemming from the crowd, because in my solution, the Climber would die otherwise anyway (since not enough Jumpers remain). You did things slightly differently, so you had precisely those two Jumpers to get the Climber off the walls that would have lead him to his death. You still used all the skills in the end nontheless. The great thing about your solution though is that it demonstrates the relative timing between the two worker lemmings isn't actually as crucial as it was in my intended solution. (Because in the intended one, you need to get the Climber to turn around before the lemming on the left goes through the one-way wall, lest the Climber would go through the tunnel, too, climb up, and die from the spike trap.)
30: This one is open-ended. Glad to see you had to use all the Builders, Jumpers, Shimmiers, as well as all of the destructive skills (except for the Bombers, of course, which you can't use anyway due to the save requirement).

Difficulty is subjective, as we've already established; kaywhyn definitely struggled a lot with Hardcore 24, and I believe it's fair to say that "Fall from grace" and "Symphony of destruction" are among the hardest levels of the pack.

I'm also noticing the subjectivity of difficulty for myself while currently playing SEB Lems - there were definitely a few levels on the highest regular rank (Rapture) that I could solve pretty quickly, whereas others still have me completely stumped (and some of the easier ones came after the tough nuts).

You're still only the second person to beat the pack, aside from my testers, though. So I would assume your solving skills have either drastically increased recently, or they've always been at a higher level than you may have given yourself credit for earlier, when you were more of a passive replay watcher .


A surprisingly high number of people downloaded the very first version of the pack, which I was very happy about, of course. But of course, I also noticed that the updates were always just downloaded by 1 or 2 people each. Maybe some people got frustrated by the pack because they got stuck somewhere, or they just got tired of updating several times in a row, because for a while, I had to update the pack with backroute fixes quite frequently. But things have certainly calmed down in that regard by now.

Therefore, I think for anyone still interested in continuing to play, now would be a good time to update your version of the pack again in case you haven't done so yet - since eric has finished it, so there shouldn't be any necessity for further backroute fixes for quite a while now.

[kaywhyn]

Difficulty is subjective, as we've already established; kaywhyn definitely struggled a lot with Hardcore 24, and I believe it's fair to say that "Fall from grace" and "Symphony of destruction" are among the hardest levels of the pack.

Yea, I honestly still have no idea why it took me so long to find that solution for Hardcore 24, but it's like you said it might be due to my mental state at what's supposedly a nearly completely patched up level, when I had severely backrouted it several times in the past. Actually, it's a little more than that as well, and that is there were a lot of things that kept complicating things for me, particularly how to release the crowd from the other side, releasing a blocker if used, and how only one can reach the bottom safely at first. Most troubling was how to save the second lemming. I never was able to find that solution due to all these complications/drawbacks. In the end, my solution was simply a minor tweak of the one I used in the previous version, and the crucial thing was

Spoiler

the placement of the first builder. It allows you to do double duty by bashing the blocker free and dig away the OWW to release the crowd, both without breaking away the staircase when interrupting them with shimmiers. I kept thinking the builder needed to be placed at the very edge. There's your idea of perseveration at work for me that you mentioned in your topic sometime ago    

Save for a few hard ones in each rank, I would definitely say the hardest level in the entire pack is Hardcore 20. That's the level that took me the longest to solve than any other level in the pack. I did see Gronkling's solution, and it's definitely much easier than what I pulled with the extreme precision.

What amazes me is how eric decided to go straight for a difficult pack. Normally, it's advised to play easier packs to ease the transition into playing more difficult packs, but some people either aren't comfortable playing the harder stuff or some still dive into the harder stuff first but get stuck badly and eventually give up altogether on the pack. Then again, Artlems was the very first custom pack he solved on his own, and if his comments are anything to go by, it sounds like it was a difficult pack. In particular, he found several Artlems levels quite difficult, and he also found several LOA levels really hard.

I'm also noticing the subjectivity of difficulty for myself while currently playing SEB Lems - there were definitely a few levels on the highest regular rank (Rapture) that I could solve pretty quickly, whereas others still have me completely stumped (and some of the easier ones came after the tough nuts).

I should be starting SEB Lems in a day or so, so help is on the way It's still going to be a while before I get to where you are, though, considering the sheer size of the pack. Then again, the largest pack I have finished to date so far is Lemmings Plus I, at 150 levels. At least in the New Formats version, SEB Lems is only larger by 10 levels. Even then, I don't expect to coast through this pack as quickly as I did with LPI, if the difficulty tag attached to the pack and your remarks on how hard both the Murder/Rapture ranks are. I might be in a league of my own when it comes to level solving, but I still get stumped from time to time even in packs considered not as hard.

[ericderkovits]

The reason I was able to beat Artlems and LOA was a big part of seeing alot of the tricks used by other people(mostly Kaywhyn-thanks). Even Icho's Reunion(which he uses alot of tricks) and also
United(seeing Kaywhyn's tricks and Icho's PMd solutions to it). So This helped me greatly in beating Artlems and LOA. Otherwise there would be no way in H*** I could have tackled these 2 custom packs. Also I really enjoyed your LOA Strato. The fact the levels used alot of the original and Ohno tile sets made it easier. Also the size of the levels other than Hardcore 30 were not huge unlike Icho's reunion and united (although that might be psychological as Kaywhyn mentioned before).

I would say looking back at the pack I think the hardest levels (for me that is) were

1) Hardcore 2 God Hates us all (I had so much trouble finding a way to keep Lemmings from splatting)
2) Hardcore 20 Symphony of Destruction (trying to figure out how to get the left lemmings up to the top, and the right lemming using a fencer-cancel to get him up near exit was difficult)
3) Heavy 27 Wooden Pints (was difficult in my solution as building from middle crowd to mined lemming was extremely precise- took along time to get right, also the skills were so limited)
4) Heavy 17 The Bee (was for me very difficult to execute-alot of the basher walker canceling was quite difficult-This level took me a while to get it right)

Of course the Hardest was getting the Talisman for Loud 1

[ericderkovits]

ok, I tweaked my Hardcore 25 replay to save 2 more lemmings(none splatted when the lead lemming started platforming above updraft).
what I did was instead of pioneer jumping off wall, I let him continue climbing then shimmy left to then land on stairs(thus saving a jumper for later to get a bigger headstart for when he
needs to platform over gap above updraft)

[Strato Incendus]

Well done, eric; that's precisely what I've placed the updraft there for!

Then again, the largest pack I have finished to date so far is Lemmings Plus I, at 150 levels.

I assume you're referring to your LP series here? Because of course I know you've finished both Lemmings World Tour and Lemmings United, both of which are larger.

[kaywhyn]

The reason I was able to beat Artlems and LOA was a big part of seeing alot of the tricks used by other people(mostly Kaywhyn-thanks). Even Icho's Reunion(which he uses alot of tricks) and also
United(seeing Kaywhyn's tricks and Icho's PMd solutions to it). So This helped me greatly in beating Artlems and LOA. Otherwise there would be no way in H*** I could have tackled these 2 custom packs.

Thanks for the info. This makes perfect sense. So you had some help beforehand from watching replays before you took on this pack. It's perfectly fine to admit that you needed some help with some of the levels, whether it's in the form of a verbal hint or a replay, as it's better to be honest than to pretend to be someone you're not. I know for sure you would had stayed with much easier packs than either Artlems or LOA otherwise, as these are somewhat beyond your comfort zone. There's nothing wrong with sticking with easier packs and avoiding the harder content if these aren't your cup of tea, as it's just better to do whatever makes you comfortable. Of course, you're still more than welcome to take on the hard stuff if you want. It's a better idea overall to simply play easier packs to help build up the training and experience to take on the harder content. After all, I didn't take on United before I have had so much training from playing and solving Dovelems, Pimolems, Reunion, Sublems, and RotL, as well as from the many Dos packs I have played and solved.

You're welcome with the help/assistance I have provided. It also sounds like you been following along with my LPs. If so, that's always a great way to get better as well. As you know, I'm more than happy to share with the community how I approach level solving in my videos, so those who would like to improve can certainly benefit from watching.

Also the size of the levels other than Hardcore 30 were not huge unlike Icho's reunion and united (although that might be psychological as Kaywhyn mentioned before).

Actually, the Reunion levels were just wide, as none of them have vertical scrolling since it started off as a pack on Lemmini. The ones that are both tall and wide tend to be extremely overwhelming. But yes, large levels tend to simply intimidate and mess with the player psychologically.

I would say looking back at the pack I think the hardest levels (for me that is) were

1) Hardcore 2 God Hates us all (I had so much trouble finding a way to keep Lemmings from splatting)
2) Hardcore 20 Symphony of Destruction (trying to figure out how to get the left lemmings up to the top, and the right lemming using a fencer-cancel to get him up near exit was difficult)
3) Heavy 27 Wooden Pints (was difficult in my solution as building from middle crowd to mined lemming was extremely precise- took along time to get right, also the skills were so limited)
4) Heavy 17 The Bee (was for me very difficult to execute-alot of the basher walker canceling was quite difficult-This level took me a while to get it right)

Both Hardcore 2 and 20 I can agree with as being hard levels. I can also agree with Heavy 27 and 17 to an extent, although it sounds like you overcomplicated the former. Let's just say that it's not easy to figure out the best route to take, as well as to consolidate the groups. As for the latter, it's not easy to figure out how to get up efficiently. Then of course there's a bunch of other levels that you mentioned as being hard for you on the other pages, although you probably meant that you thought they weren't anywhere near as these 4 which you thought were the hardest. This pack is definitely harder than Strato's earlier ones.

Of course the Hardest was getting the Talisman for Loud 1

Just because a talisman is hard doesn't necessarily mean the level itself is. There's plenty of cases where the talisman solution is much harder than the normal solution to the level. Sometimes they're just the normal solution with a few minor tweaks, but other times the solutions are drastically different. Regardless, as you know I don't care about the talismans at all. Any solution that works and solves the level is good enough for me. Not to mention that most of the talismans are beyond my ability to get, and personally I think it's not necessary to waste more time on a level than is needed, because it's time that can be well spent on other things.   

[Strato Incendus]

Regardless, as you know I don't care about the talismans at all. Any solution that works and solves the level is good enough for me. Not to mention that most of the talismans are beyond my ability to get, and personally I think it's not necessary to waste more time on a level than is needed, because it's time that can be well spent on other things.

Says the guy who went out of his way to look for a talisman solution for "The Grand Puzzle" without even a guarantee that it was possible at all...

[kaywhyn]

Says the guy who went out of his way to look for a talisman solution for "The Grand Puzzle" without even a guarantee that it was possible at all...

You suspected it was possible, and I did note that it was one that was potentially doable for one such as myself. Besides, I didn't really have anything else to do early that morning

[ericderkovits]

ok one more change to Hardcore 25. I used the basher previously not used(instead of digging from top of pillar to get pickups, I bashed right even with top pickup then dug). This managed to save 3
more lemmings(so now saved 70, 5 over requirement). So after saving just the requirement(65), after tweak 1(67), after 2nd small change(70).

[ericderkovits]

ok I now have my solutions to the pack uploaded to my channel on youtube. Just type lemmings open air in the youtube search bar and you will see my playlist. There are 8 videos.
2 videos for each rank(15 levels per video).

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks a lot, eric! Since I've already watched all of them in the NeoLemmix player and your videos are uncommented, I personally won't watch them all again. But it's a great thing to have for anyone who is playing and looking for solutions. If you keep this approach for other packs, you will be a great help for IchoTolot and his "library of replays".

Your newest solution to Hardcore 25 is a great way of using the additional Basher! Saving 5 more lemmings doesn't seem to warrant adding another talisman for me, especially because the solution isn't that different from the main one, but 70 is a nice round number.

[David]

Hello Strato Incendus,

Here my replays : Loud 20 to Heavy 15 (+ Loud 9 and Loud 10 which have been updated).

Loud 1 : I'm missing the talisman, I still haven't managed to earn it...
Loud 21 : The water is only visible on the support, that is to say that it is no longer seen when the ground is exploded, it is disturbing ! Anyway, I didn't like this level at all...
Loud 28 : The falling snow is unpleasant. I played the level with the "gray mode" (mode whose name I don't know !)

Otherwise, I really liked most of the levels, especially Loud 22, Loud 29, Heavy 10 and Heavy 13 !!!

And I wonder if my solution of the following levels are backroutes : Loud 20, Heavy 3 (too simple !) and Heavy 14 (the solution didn't seem very interesting to me !)...

Bye !

[ericderkovits]

yes, loud 1 getting the Talisman is perhaps the hardest level in the whole pack. Even though I managed to get it, it wasn't Armani's obsure way of getting it. It would be interesting to see what his
obsure trick was.

also loud 29 was also probably my favorite level in the whole pack due to the solution, although I backrouted it first.

Also It may look like I will have to update my youtube solutions with any updates of the pack, if David backrouted any levels in his new batch.

[kaywhyn]

Congrats David! You're doing well. Almost done with the Heavy rank and then onto the final Hardcore rank.

yes, loud 1 getting the Talisman is perhaps the hardest level in the whole pack.

Let's get our facts straight. Loud 1 is nowhere near the hardest level of the entire pack. But yes, in terms of talismans, it's likely the hardest one to obtain in the whole pack.

Also It may look like I will have to update my youtube solutions with any updates of the pack, if David backrouted any levels in his new batch.

Levels getting updated happen all the time, especially with still very active pack authors, so truthfully I wouldn't bother with reuploading video solutions of the up-to-date levels. For example, with my LPs, even after a pack gets updated, I'm not going to go back and LP the levels that changed. I likely wouldn't go back and resolve any patched up levels either once I'm done solving a pack. LOA is likely an exception, since I was a pre-tester, so at some point I will go back and resolve them, as except for Hardcore 24 I haven't downloaded any new pack versions since the pack's release.