[NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks, that one is as intended at last!

[ericderkovits]

ok, here  are the final 10 levels of Heavy.
Alot of these 10 levels were very difficult.

[Strato Incendus]

Alot of these 10 levels were very difficult.

As they should be! I'm glad to hear that!

No backroutes this time!

Responses to your replays (Heavy 21 - 30)

21: That was a nice use of a Stoner staircase, placing it inside a Digger shaft. I have never seen that before. Thus, you can figure this part was not intended. Making the Basher go through, as well as stopping the Shimmiers with Stoners etc., that of course was all as intended. Interestingly, almost everyone seems to platform over to that half-ball on the left wall, instead of gliding onto it and digging it away to allow Climbers to get up. The latter has the downside of the Climbers splatting unless you make them Shimmiers. I think this is how people end up saving some skills: If they platform over, there is no splat height, so the Climbers can just fall back down again safely.
22: Very close to intended; making the Miner go through apparently is not required here (I think I've seen another solution already where that wasn't done either).
23: That was almost more complex than the intended solution, but in exchange, it was probably less precise than the intended solution (which uses the Blocker instead of multiple lemmings, as you did, to time the other destructive skills inside the Miner tunnel correctly). And in spirit, it's much closer to the intended one than most of the slightly easier solutions I've seen for this one.
24: Valid alternative solution.
25: Now THIS is another nice trick I had never thought of - using a Basher staircase to make a Stacker's stack walkable? I really need to start enforcing this on some levels now! Even though you used Shimmiers to do this in this particular example, it should also work with Jumpers, but most of all, also with Walkers. In other words, this is a trick I could have discovered a long time ago, even before these two new skills were introduced. I can't believe I never considered this!
26: Well, you did send the lemming to Hell and back, which is more than I can ask for based on the other solutions I've seen, so this is fine!
27: This is another one where countless solutions seem to exist, yet all of them are equally difficult. Making the Basher and Miner go through will usually be required, simply because the destructive skills are so limited - but slipping through the terrain of that same Miner tunnel from the other side, that must have been very precise , so that wasn't necessarily required.
28: This one is open-ended, anything that works and uses all or almost all skills is fine.
29: Nice job saving everyone here!
30: Close to intended. Somehow people always just seem to trap the right crowd between a Stacker and a Blocker, instead of using a Digger pit, as I did.

[ericderkovits]

ok, here are the 1st 10 levels of Hardcore replays.

The hardest of these 10 was level 2. The other ones not too difficult.

Got the Talisman for level 1(easy)

[kaywhyn]

Hardcore 2 is definitely much harder now than it was before. It has already gone through several versions. Armani and I backrouted the level very badly in the earlier versions, and so you're the unfortunate majority to be playing the current version where it's at the peak of its difficulty Strato was pretty much like "those damn bomber backroutes" 

The only other one in the batch you have solved I would say can be difficult for most is Hardcore 5. Probably about equal in difficulty to Hardcore 2, but definitely not as chaotic and so just a tad bit easier. It's still not easy at all.

Just looked ahead with the final 20 levels, and most of them are quite difficult as I recall. Here, I'm putting myself in the shoes of less experienced players, as when I gave feedback I told Strato that I didn't think the Hardcore rank was that hard at all for the final rank of the pack. I felt some of the levels in the earlier ranks were far harder than most of the Hardcore ones, but of course, I'm in a completely different league here

[ericderkovits]

I thought Hardcore 5 was much easier than hardcore 2. I kept having trouble keeping lemmings from splatting in Hardcore 2, Finally I was able to find a solution to handle that.
And like you said before. Some levels people may find hard (not you though since your a master), others may find not so hard. So I guess I just found it much easier.

Hey Strato, I finally got the Gold Talisman for Loud 1.

[kaywhyn]

In some ways Hardcore 5 is easier than Hardcore 2, but it's still not an easy level regardless. In particular, I say the hardest parts are figuring out how to get up and how to recover after getting the buttons on either side. In any case, there are far worse ones yet to come, if you manage to get that far. As you're quite far into the pack, you're doing well.

I thought you said you didn't care for the talismans Haha good job on finally getting the Loud 1 one, though.

[Strato Incendus]

First of all, congratulations on getting the talisman for Loud 01, eric! You actually did it a completely different way than Armani (who was the one who discovered the talisman in the first place). Glad to see there is more than just his fairly obscure method of obtaining it.

Regarding your Hardcore solutions so far, while most of them are not as intended, they use all or all but 1 skill, and are therefore all acceptable as alternative solutions to me! A lot of these are semi-open-ended anyway, and the shape of the terrain itself poses the main challenge (especially on the already mentioned Hardcore 02). Much like with "Wooden pints" on the Heavy rank, no matter which solution you find to navigate those landscapes, none of them are going to be easy.

Responses to your Hardcore replays (01-10)

01: completely different than intended.
02: in some ways similar to intended, in some ways not.
03: Here you're actually closer to the intended solution than anyone else has been so far! Bouncing the Miner off the Blockers repeatedly is indeed intended. Transitioning from a Digger to a Platformer in such a way that a gap remains for a Climber to climb up through however, that was not required. Good trick to know for other levels, though!
04: The main trick is there, which is holding the crowd back by fencing them out in the other direction than where the pioneer is going.
05: in some ways similar to intended, in some ways not.
06: very close to intended, although I believe you let more lemmings die to the chameleon specifically than I did. I was quite surprised hearing it slurp several times! :clam:
07: some nice Bomber shenanigans here, seemed more straightforward than my intended solution
08: very close to intended, although I used the Swimmer for the crowd in the middle, not for the pioneer from the left crowd; that lemming can also just dig down on the right side and then platform the water up from below. By making him a Swimmer, you only needed a single Builder for that, but then you needed to build over the exit to free the crowd on the right. In the intended solution, the Swimmer from the middle crowd crosses the long pool at the top and then digs down to get to the one-way wall that holds back the crowd on the right.
09: Intended.
10: Very close to intended. I think you're the first one who managed to save the Climber at the end, because you still had a Jumper remaining! Oftentimes he ends up splatting, even if people had a Shimmier remaining that they could easily have swapped with a Jumper they used elsewhere.

[ericderkovits]

ok, here's my next 10 hardcore level replays.
most of these were easy.
level 17 was a little difficult, and level 20 was super hard. spent alot of time on that one.

[Strato Incendus]

Great job, eric!

Responses to your replays (Hardcore 11 - 20)

11: Very close to intended, just saved one Fencer.
12: Valid alternative solution.
13: Close to intended, you didn't have to go over the water and back.
14: Intended.
15: Close to intended; this is the first time I see the entire level solved with just one worker lemming throughout. Usually, the left side gets done by several lemmings, and only on the right side of the exit is where a single lemming does all the work.
16: This is the only level I felt required a little more fixing, because your solution seemed so straightforward that I can hardly believe it was that challenging to figure out .
17: Valid alternative solution.
18: Intended.
19: Close to intended; going along the right side at the beginning can't really be enforced, because there's no way to make terrain Basher-friendly without also making it Miner-friendly.
20: Very close to intended (especially the "bomb from the other side of the steel" part), and uses all the skills.

As a result of these most recent 10 replays of yours, another small update has been uploaded that brings some additional steel as fixes to Hardcore 16.

[ericderkovits]

ok, how about this for hardcore 16. different solution at start. more difficult with added steel.

[Strato Incendus]

Yes, that's much better! Still not quite as intended, but much closer to it. And it definitely looks like this was a lot harder to figure out .

[kaywhyn]

Took me long enough to solve this one and only remaining level left. As you know, the latest version of this level was the only one I couldn't solve before you released the pack Somehow I feel this isn't intended, but I honestly can't see any other way to do it. Definitely one of the hardest levels of the pack now that it has gone through several versions. Then again, this solution of mine is more or less the same as the one I used for the previous version, just substituted two skills in place of the fencer to save the 2nd lemming.

[Strato Incendus]

Congratulations for beating the level again, kaywhyn!

As you guessed, no, this is indeed not intended, but I don't see a way of stopping it. And if it was that difficult to solve anyway, I don't think it's necessary to fix it even further either . This is simply an alternative solution that apparently wasn't any easier to figure out.

[kaywhyn]

The really weird thing is I'm not sure why it took me a really long time to find this solution despite it simply being a minor tweak of my previous solution where I used two skills in place of the fencer and then the rest remained the same. Before I finally solved it, I thought I was a dummy if I couldn't solve it but Armani and Gronkling seemed they were able to solve Hardcore 24 easily. I've seen both of their solutions, and honestly Armani's intended solution is awesome. On the other hand, Gronkling and I found the exact same solution, so now I don't feel as bad about the level stumping me this long