Vote on the theme of my next pack!

[Strato Incendus]

So, it looks like the release of Lemmings Open Air (LOA) is finally just around the corner, after two years.
I have two further music-themed packs in development, both of which are intended to feature the final skills that get introduced (and I seriously hope it will be all four of them! )
Both of these packs (Lemmings: Hall of Fame (LHF) and Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll (LDR)) have strong tileset restrictions attached to them, though, because they're supposed to look and feel like Lemmings 2: The Tribes and Lemmings 3D respectively.

Lemmings Open Air (LOA) will contain all skills which are currently part of the latest stable version of NeoLemmix (12.10), i.e. including the Shimmier and the Jumper.
It will be noticeable though that those skills were introduced alongside development, because the first two ranks only feature the Shimmier, as far as new skills are concerned, whereas the Jumper doesn't appear until rank 3 of 4.

However, I feel like I still want to make at least one pack using classic tilesets (like LOA) that will also feature all the skills the final version of NeoLemmix is going to have.

Once LHF and LDR are finished, I will have done music-themed packs in style of classical Lemmings, Lemmings 2: The Tribes, and Lemmings 3D. So it seems to me like the music-theme will be pretty much (over-)done at that point.

I have already decided that I will NOT make a music-themed pack inspired by Lemmings 3: An All New World of Lemmings. I've never played it during my childhood, haven't played it much either since I joined the forums, and I think it strays so far from original lemmings (including the larger sprites etc.) that it feels completely different. Emulating it in NeoLemmix would require a bunch of pickup skills, plus always providing infinite Walkers, Blockers, Jumpers etc. And I would have to be an avid fan of Lemmings 3 to do it, which I'm not.

If we do end up getting additional objects as well, specifically portals (=non-release-rate sensitive teleporters) and toggles to turn certain terrain sections on and off, I could still see myself making a music-themed pack in style of Lemmings Revolution.
However, we don't have any tilesets that are particularly reminiscent of Lemmings Revolution. Plus, an accurate simulation of Lemmings Revolution may or may not require the presence of (horizontal) level wrap.



Therefore, I would be perfectly fine with dropping the music theme after Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll (Lemmings: Hall of Fame will most likely come out first) and make my next pack about something completely different.

I've kind of always needed an overarching theme ever since I released Pit Lems, which felt a little meaningless to me because it was just an arbitrary collection of (albeit satisfactory) puzzles.
Our community is quite small, so whenever I make a pack full of references to a specific topic, I of course want to choose something that as many people as possible will "get".

That's why I want to determine early in which direction I will be going, theme-wise. Mainly because the current experimental version with the new skills is restricted to classic, ONML, and Christmas tilesets.
(I do get the impression that namida did this on purpose so that I wouldn't use any L2 styles, treating those levels as if I could already make them part of Lemmings Hall of Fame . That's why I went with Pillar exclusively so far, because those levels can still become part of the L2 Classic tribe. )

I don't know how long the experimental phase for the new skills is going to last, but assuming all four skills get introduced, over the course of the experimental phase, I will probably end up with a bunch of levels in classic tilesets that stylistically won't fit into any of the packs I'm currently working on, once the experimental phase has been completed. (LOA uses classic tilesets, but level creation has already been completed for several weeks now.)



So here are a bunch of alternative themes, other nerd topics, that a future pack of mine designed around all skills equally could be based upon:

1) Magic: The Gathering. With a player base always ranging in at least two-digit millions, and thus larger than the population of quite a few countries, a Multiverse of Lemming planeswalkers would have a high chance of containing references familiar to fellow "nerds". And I could use the different tilesets to represent different planes of the multiverse. Most likely, it would not suffice to restrict myself to classic and ONML tilesets here, and some levels may tilt towards my "level painting" style again, as represented by the geography levels in Lemmings World Tour. However, I hope that pack has shown that artistic quality doesn't necessarily have to come at the cost of puzzle quality (though some may disagree on that ). Most level titles would probably refer to names of individual cards, though I could see references to places, names of editions (sets), or events as well. I could also use differently coloured sprites to represent various species / tribes from the MtG worlds (e.g. a recolouring of GigaLem's Millas to represent Elves).
Pack title: Lemmings: The Gathering
Rank names: Novice, Apprentice, Magician, Adept, Planeswalker

2) Horror Films. Movies were on the above-linked list of themes I made two years ago, and because that topic would be just a little too vast in my book, I'd focus on the "disturbing" side of cinema (or usually: direct-to-DVD releases ^^) specifically. A couple of years ago, I took a little dive into the cesspool of the most f*ed-up sh*t that writers and directors have come up with so far. So if you ever wanted to see a "Lemming Centipede" or play "The 120 levels of Sodom", this would be the place to go .
Again, I could see myself using other tilesets than classic ones for this - in particular, there have been quite a few Horror- / Halloween related tilesets. Those tend to be more on the spooky than the gory side, though. So there would definitely also be frequent appearances of the Menace tileset for "Splatter levels". The level titles would probably just refer to the movie names, or to a quote from the movies, if there are particularly memorable or (in-)famous ones. Zombies would probably be more frequent again, and the lemming death toll per level would most likely be higher than usual.
Pack title: Lemmings Slaughterhouse
Rank names (taken from Paralems): Harmless, Disturbing, Disgusting, Abhorrent, Demented

3) Memes. We already have Rickrolling as a tileset, and Pepe the Frog on the L2 Outdoor tileset. And some memes that are based on other songs (e.g. Numa Numa, Trololo) I have already featured in Lemmings World Tour. Those few levels may therefore be worth using again, or I would just create a separate level, referring to the meme specifically instead of the song it's based on. From a Climber-introduction level named "Well that escalated quickly" over "You keep using that skill" and "I don't always play Lemmings (but when I do)..." to puzzles that are so confusing that they just deserve a straight-up Captain Picard "What the f*ck...?" meme, the level titles in such a pack should be understandable to anyone who is somewhat regularly active on the internet.
Pack title: Lemmings Social Network
Rank names: P-C, Mainstream, Offensive, Edgy, Shitlord

4) Astronomy. Starting on Earth, traveling through the solar system, to Alpha Centauri and beyond, eventually leaving the Milky Way towards Andromeda until we reach the edge of the DMA universe, we will search the depths of the cosmos for other forms of unintelligent life. This presents a possible opportunity for the re-appearance of the level "I'm your Venus" from Lemmings World Tour, as well as for a follow-up level named "Uranus" from Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll. Apart from that, lemming space is pretty much still unexplored. The different tilesets could be used to represent different planets and moons, or at least different types of worlds (rocky planets, water worlds, gas giants etc.). Level titles wouldn't come up quite as easily as with the other themes, but it should still be doable.
Music-wise, I would consider doing orchestral versions of the original Lemmings tracks this time. Those would be much easier to record, because I could do it all via MIDI. And it would be stylistically more similar to film music from actual SciFi movies and series.
Pack title: Lemmings Universe
Rank names: Planetary, Stellar, Galactic, Universal (the first three are taken from the Kardashev scale, and Universal would just be the next possible utopian extension after "Galactic")

5) Music. If I were to stick to the music theme (i.e. every level title is a song title), I could try to simulate a Lemmings-Revolution experience in NeoLemmix - using Zombies for the occasional Weasels. Colorful Arty's Water Lemmings would also appear somewhat frequently. In the absence of gravity reversal, Shimmiers and other skills that can affect the ceiling (like Fencers, and eventually Spearers and Laserers) would fill that gap. If we don't get portals, regular teleporters would be used instead. And if we don't get level wrap, teleporters can partly simulate that as well. I'd have to check the Lemmings Revolution music tracks again to see whether it would be worthwhile to create self-recorded versions of those. That would be another novelty then.
Alternatively, I could create a second music-themed pack with classic tilesets, i.e. similar to Lemmings Open Air, but maybe actually easier than that.
Pack title: Lemmings Band Camp
Rank names: Noob, Punk, Shredder, Virtuoso, Maestro



I haven't decided on the size of the pack yet - it might be smaller than most of those I've done so far.
Thus, those ideas don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive.
It's reasonable to assume though that a pack featuring all skills would require a good deal of introductory levels, and should therefore have an appropriate minimum size so that those introductory levels don't make up a majority share of the entire pack.

I gave every user two votes at first to narrow down the choices; in the end, I might put up a second poll to decide between the top two candidates, in case the race is close.

[kaywhyn]

This was a pretty easy decision for me. I voted for astronomy and music. The former because I love astronomy in addition to my huge love of math and science, the latter because I love music/singing, and I consider the visual arts essential to have in school. It really does come in handy for stressful moments and can be powerful and uplifting in those times. At the same time, I do think that because you have several music theme packs that it might be overdone by this point. Nevertheless, I don't mind if another such music pack does come up from you

[Swerdis]

Astronomy is one of my biggest passions - so this was a no brainer for me, too. Not many people are interested in this science unfortunately. It isn't even an independent school subject here in Germany anymore as it was in GDR times. Today it's part of the physics lessons and comes off badly because of that. A real shame.

[kaywhyn]

Astronomy is one of my biggest passions - so this was a no brainer for me, too. Not many people are interested in this science unfortunately. It isn't even an independent school subject here in Germany anymore as it was in GDR times. Today it's part of the physics lessons and comes off badly because of that. A real shame.

Hey Swerdis, that's right, I remember you mentioning your love of astronomy somewhere, so that's an interest both you and I share I took an astronomy course at the 4-year university I attended as part of the GE (general education) requirements. As you might had guessed, I took astronomy because of how I love the subject myself. Before this, I believe some astronomy stuff was touched upon when I took physical science in the 8th grade. At the middle school I went to, 6th grade science was Earth science, 7th grade was life science, and 8th grade was physical science. I'm in agreement with you that astronomy should be offered as a standalone course. As it is right now in education, in the sciences you can pretty much only take biology, chemistry, and physics. At least that's the way it was at my high school. In general, schools should be offering courses on subjects that students might be interested in taking and learning more about. One of these days, I would like to own a telescope so that I can do some stargazing at nighttime. Right now, I'm a math teacher, but I have thought about possibly working for NASA due to my math degrees (my bachelor's and master's are both in math). I haven't decided for sure, but it's still a possibility for me even though I constantly believe I won't be good enough to be able to do anything else besides teaching.

[WillLem]

Astronomy is one of my biggest passions - so this was a no brainer for me, too. Not many people are interested in this science unfortunately

It's my favourite science, I love the cosmos. I think that the reason it's perhaps fallen out of favour is because of the enormous risks (not to mention the costs) involved with space travel and exploration. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to realise that Star Trek dream just yet, where we forget about money and just concentrate on overcoming any and all obstacles that space wants to present us with.

Going to the moon was huge, it'll likely be Mars next. I hope that we reach Titan in my lifetime, and see its beautiful planet in all its majesty from the side that faces it. Unlikely, but we can dream!

[Shmoley]

I agree with both of you kaywhyn and Willem! Astronomy is definitely my biggest passion in sciences and in fact I would love to have a career in the space field! Like you could ask me so many things and I'll probably be able to give a pretty good answer..... Did you know Mars has two moons, Phobos and Deimos?.. yep there I go again with space stuff. Jokes aside I would absolutely love to see a space themed pack here on the forums.

[kaywhyn]

I agree with both of you kaywhyn and Willem! Astronomy is definitely my biggest passion in sciences and in fact I would love to have a career in the space field! Like you could ask me so many things and I'll probably be able to give a pretty good answer..... Did you know Mars has two moons, Phobos and Deimos?.. yep there I go again with space stuff. Jokes aside I would absolutely love to see a space themed pack here on the forums.

Awesome Shmolem! That's 4 people all within the same day to share their love of astronomy. Yup, I knew that about Mars' two moons. Earth and Mars are the only inner planets that have at least 1 moon, though Mars has us beat there

Strato, perhaps for the astronomy pack you can make an entire rank dedicated to a planet. That's probably a good starting point for rank names, eg, first rank is Mercury, second rank is Venus, etc. Or, at least a word that describes each planet for a ranking name. If going with the former, that would likely mean 8 ranks total, unless you disagree with the astronomers' reclassification of Pluto as a dwarf planet. I, for one, am not happy with them demoting its status. Like, why change it now when it was considered a planet for 76 years? A lot of us here grew up being taught that Pluto is a planet. You can probably add Earth's moon as a rank even though it's not a planet

[Proxima]

Not just four. As of right now, eleven people have voted for astronomy, putting it far out in the lead!

Phobos and Deimos are named for the Greek for "fear" and "terror", which makes it appropriate that the videogame Doom is set on the two moons. Maybe that connection could inspire a level or two Incidentally, I just found out now that I've been pronouncing Deimos incorrectly for years -- it's "die-mos", not "day-mos" (at least in English).

You might be able to guess that I have a fondness astronomy. I don't know... something about my profile might be a slight hint

[kaywhyn]

Not just four. As of right now, eleven people have voted for astronomy, putting it far out in the lead!

I meant 4 sharing in a post their love of astronomy Yours makes 5. Voting for astronomy doesn't necessarily mean the people like the subject, although I can't imagine why anyone would vote for it if he or she doesn't. But yes, astronomy has an overwhelming lead (12 as of this writing), and all the others come nowhere near it, so astronomy is the clear winner here.

Incidentally, I just found out now that I've been pronouncing Deimos incorrectly for years -- it's "die-mos", not "day-mos" (at least in English).

Really? I've always heard it said "dee-most." Then again, I only heard it said this way via a game show on Youtube.

You might be able to guess that I have a fondness astronomy. I don't know... something about my profile might be a slight hint

Yup, I gathered from both your profile username and pic that you must have a huge love of astronomy

[Shmoley]

I love how this thread went from "Decide Strato's next pack theme" to "Express your undying passion for space" in like five posts. Funny how my one little fact caused that whole conversation I've always heard Deimos be pronounced as "Dee - mos"..... Do you guys want another random fact? Umm.. Pluto has five moons: Charon, Nix, Hydra, Styx, and Kerberos. Bonus fact! Charon's gravitational force is strong enough that it moves Pluto technically making Pluto Charon's moon in a way. Also, I'm part of the "Pluto should be a planet squad"

[Pieuw]

I voted Astronomy because I think it would fit very well with puzzles and could make pretty looking levels, and Horror Movies because I love them

[Swerdis]

Also, I'm part of the "Pluto should be a planet squad"

But then you had to classify objects like Ceres or Sedna as planets too. In fact, Pluto resembles them more than Mars, Jupiter or Neptune - so I think it was the right decision to demote Pluto to the status of a dwarf planet by the IAU in 2006. Scienctists should correct themselves when new knowledge emerges.

Here in Germany, we pronounce Deimos like "Diemos (for English speakers, because ei = ie and ie = ee).

Going to the moon was huge, it'll likely be Mars next. I hope that we reach Titan in my lifetime, and see its beautiful planet in all its majesty from the side that faces it. Unlikely, but we can dream!

Yes, some more enthusiasm about spaceflight would be desirable. This must have been an exciting time in 1969 when mankind landed on the surface of the moon for the first time. But I'm a little pessimistic. It would be a huge achievement even going to Mars in my lifetime - I can't think of Titan at all at the moment.

[Strato Incendus]

Wow, that got a lot of replies in a short time! Thanks a lot, everyone!

I guess I'll leave the poll open in case further people want to share their opinions - I want to count every vote - but at this point, it's very unlikely that anything will surpass Astronomy as a theme. So I consider Lemmings Universe the "Level Pack Elect" at this point.

Nevertheless, I don't mind if another such music pack does come up from you

I'm glad to hear that - after all, there are still two more music packs coming after Lemmings Open Air. I still have a lot of song titles in the back of my head that I want to design levels around... but I also still have a lot of level slots to fill, of course. Especially for Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll. The titles for Lemmings: Hall of Fame are all pretty much fixed at this point, because I knew right from the start that there would be exactly 10 levels of each tribe.

Speaking of tribes:

Strato, perhaps for the astronomy pack you can make an entire rank dedicated to a planet. That's probably a good starting point for rank names, eg, first rank is Mercury, second rank is Venus, etc. Or, at least a word that describes each planet for a ranking name. If going with the former, that would likely mean 8 ranks total, unless you disagree with the astronomers' reclassification of Pluto as a dwarf planet. I, for one, am not happy with them demoting its status. Like, why change it now when it was considered a planet for 76 years? A lot of us here grew up being taught that Pluto is a planet. You can probably add Earth's moon as a rank even though it's not a planet

That is a fantastic idea! Although if we limit it to the solar system - which would have the upside that we know much more about the different planets and moons here - calling it "Lemmings Universe" would probably be a little too ambitious. "Lemmings Expanse" seems more fitting, given that the Amazon series "The Expanse" focuses much more on our own solar system. (I haven't watched much of it yet, though, and it's been a while.) At the same time, "Lemmings Universe" is more catchy and tells everyone more openly what it is about. Maybe the pack would spend the majority of its time in our own solar system - as it's most likely going to be the case in reality as well - and it will only be on the last couple of levels that are we actually going to leave it.



The second thing is: If we stay within the solar system for most of the pack, I would most likely hop around between planets of the solar system within ranks, and revisiting each one several times. Some planets already have dedicated tilesets (like namida's Martian tileset). So revisiting planets should automatically cause a healthy mix of graphic sets.

Doing one planet per rank, in turn, would kind of implay using the same tileset throughout that rank. This is something I generally try to avoid, and also the reason why e.g. the ranks in the L2: The Tribes-inspired Lemmings: Hall of Fame are deliberately not ordered by tribe (as in Nepster's "Return of the Tribes"), but simply by difficulty - with the tilesets switching it up normally from level to level.

Also, one rank per planet would require an equal amount of levels per planet - and let's say that it's much harder to do levels set on gas giants, because you can't use any terrain. At least not any terrain that is not implied to be some technological device brought there by humans / lemmings and floating in the atmosphere somehow.

I have done one such level for Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll, so I'm going to share it in that thread right now. Then you can see what I mean.


Now, to finally enter the astronomy-nerd discussion :

Did you know Mars has two moons, Phobos and Deimos?

Yes, because those two guys are one of the main reasons why ideas of terraforming Mars and giving it an atmosphere won't work. Aside from the fact that the planet is simply too small to "hold anything", if it were to gain an artifical atmosphere somehow, Phobos and Deimos would experience friction with that atmosphere. As a consequence, they would slow down, lose centrifugal force and be pulled in by Mars's gravity, most likely colliding with it, and causing such massive destruction that Mars would be uninhabitable for 100,000 years. Source: German astro-physicist Professor Harald Lesch.

I hope that we reach Titan in my lifetime, and see its beautiful planet in all its majesty from the side that faces it. Unlikely, but we can dream!

It depends on what you mean by "reaching Titan", but we already do have pictures of its surface, taken by Huygens. I don't think we have shots of Saturn taken from there, but honestly, that thing is big enough that you can clearly see it on images without Titan blocking any part of the view.

If you mean a human landing on Titan... yeah, probably not. Getting to Mars is ambitious enough (6 months one way). So long before humans ever set foot on Titan, we will likely explore the Jupiter moons Europa and Ganymede first (and maybe Io, if the astronauts are feeling particularly suicidal).

[kaywhyn]

Strato, perhaps for the astronomy pack you can make an entire rank dedicated to a planet. That's probably a good starting point for rank names, eg, first rank is Mercury, second rank is Venus, etc. Or, at least a word that describes each planet for a ranking name. If going with the former, that would likely mean 8 ranks total, unless you disagree with the astronomers' reclassification of Pluto as a dwarf planet. I, for one, am not happy with them demoting its status. Like, why change it now when it was considered a planet for 76 years? A lot of us here grew up being taught that Pluto is a planet. You can probably add Earth's moon as a rank even though it's not a planet

That is a fantastic idea! Although if we limit it to the solar system - which would have the upside that we know much more about the different planets and moons here - calling it "Lemmings Universe" would probably be a little too ambitious. "Lemmings Expanse" seems more fitting, given that the Amazon series "The Expanse" focuses much more on our own solar system. (I haven't watched much of it yet, though, and it's been a while.) At the same time, "Lemmings Universe" is more catchy and tells everyone more openly what it is about. Maybe the pack would spend the majority of its time in our own solar system - as it's most likely going to be the case in reality as well - and it will only be on the last couple of levels that are we actually going to leave it.

Yea, good point about just staying within our solar system and Lemmings Universe wouldn't be as aptly titled. Perhaps you can start with the Big Bang, then maybe our solar system, and then explore other worlds, like the Andromeda galaxy or something.

The second thing is: If we stay within the solar system for most of the pack, I would most likely hop around between planets of the solar system within ranks, and revisiting each one several times. Some planets already have dedicated tilesets (like namida's Martian tileset). So revisiting planets should automatically cause a healthy mix of graphic sets.

Doing one planet per rank, in turn, would kind of implay using the same tileset throughout that rank. This is something I generally try to avoid, and also the reason why e.g. the ranks in the L2: The Tribes-inspired Lemmings: Hall of Fame are deliberately not ordered by tribe (as in Nepster's "Return of the Tribes"), but simply by difficulty - with the tilesets switching it up normally from level to level.

Also, one rank per planet would require an equal amount of levels per planet - and let's say that it's much harder to do levels set on gas giants, because you can't use any terrain. At least not any terrain that is not implied to be some technological device brought there by humans / lemmings and floating in the atmosphere somehow.

All very good points you brought up here. Whatever you decide for the astronomy theme pack, I'm definitely looking forward to it! It's too early for me to be making suggestions anyway, but I'm glad that you thought my idea of a planet in each rank was a good one

Pluto has five moons: Charon, Nix, Hydra, Styx, and Kerberos.

Now this I didn't know. I always thought Pluto only had one moon, Charon. I learned something new here about the most distant former planet. Thanks for this, Shmolem!

[Strato Incendus]

All very good points you brought up here. Whatever you decide for the astronomy theme pack, I'm definitely looking forward to it! It's too early for me to be making suggestions anyway, but I'm glad that you thought my idea of a planet in each rank was a good one

I was mainly referring to the idea of having separate tilesets per planet, and then revisiting those planets, rather than having each level be a one-off resembling any given world as closely as possible. The latter would have been closer to a Lemmings-World-Tour artsy approach, where the level is made to look as "realistic" as possible.

Now instead, I could use certain tilesets repeatedly, and then I would no longer have to spell out in the level title every time which planet this is supposed to be - once I have established it in the beginning.

Reading it again, I think your suggestion didn't refer to tilesets directly, but you definitely gave me the idea to have several levels per planet / moon. With my original concept, I guess our entire solar system would have been confined to one rank, with just one level per planet / moon, and then we would have gone straight out into the unknown.