[DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion

[Minim]

I thought I'd give these new skills a try too and give my thoughts.

I'm pretty much agree with Proxima about the usefulness and the funness of the Grenadier and Spearer. I think the colour of the Grenade should be different (Maybe Purple, Red, Dark Grey or Brown?) otherwise the icon just looks like he's throwing Lemming's hair. Also, the Grenade's radius is surprisingly big (It's been a long time since the "Giant Bombers" gimmick that I saw a crater this large, and I remember how big that was ). Makes me curious to find out why.

The laserer's kinda redundant because you have the fencer, and also, you can't create or destroy steel.

The slider certainly has confused me with the mechanics, particularly as they face the opposite direction after falling down a wall, but I see plenty of potential. (It'd certainly be useful for the level "Save Me", but you'll need several lemmings for this)

[Dullstar]

There have been concerns that the Laser Blaster may be redundant with the Mortar/Grenadier and/or the Fencer, particularly with the current angle as opposed to a steeper one. I disagree with this perspective.

This level is designed to demonstrate a situation where the Laser Blaster is of use, but the other destructive skills are not, in such a way that the desired outcome is not easily replicated with the existing skills. The interaction showcased in this level would also outright break in a way that cannot be fixed with a steeper Laser Blaster. All destructive skills are present, including the new ones - feel free to try to get up there using any destructive skill other than the Laser Blaster - I can't think of a way to create a suitable terrain grade with any other skill (and if you do find another way, I want to know about it, because I'd like to use that).

That said, I do feel the Laser Blaster's range is a bit too long - I'm not sure if there is a maximum right now, but if there is this level was too small to show it off; I feel like if I were to include it in a proper level I'd probably want to put in a lot of steel. If we're concerned it doesn't make sense for a laser to eventually stop, we could always make it something else visually.

[Strato Incendus]

The laserer's kinda redundant because you have the fencer, and also, you can't create or destroy steel.

Why should any skill be able to destroy steel? Not even Bombers can do that. Bombers (and now Grenaders) already have the dedicated power to get through one-way arrows. (Especially with the Grenader, this is something we always have to be aware of from now on, because its crater is larger than the Bombers. Which is a little weird - normally you'd expect a bomb to cause a larger crater than a grenade, I guess. But a Bomber is not the same thing as dropping an actual bomb; it's more like a lemming with a dynamite belt.)

Especially considering the long range of the Laserer, steel absolutely needs to be able to stop it. If haven't tried going against one-way arrows or one-way fields with the Laserer yet.



@Dullstar: Indeed, when providing only destructive skills, there is no other way to get up there. If you don't include any constructive skills but the Spearer, you could do the same thing I did in my level "Microcosm", where you throw two spears into the ceiling so that a Shimmier can land on them and start fencing from there. You need two spears, because a single one has too flat of an angle when landing in the ceiling, so that the Shimmier will simply bump against it and fall off.

[Strato Incendus]

Here's another one!

I hope I could enforce the solution in such a way that it can't be solved by just a single pioneer lemming... that's why I had to make the Jumper a pickup skill, so the first worker lemming can't just jump towards the ceiling and shimmy up to the final part himself.

Also, I made the drop into the water a little higher on purpose, to avoid the quirky Slider-Swimmer behaviour discussed in the neighbouring thread. Also, this higher wall helps to keep the lemming trapped in a loop as long as needed, so that he doesn't walk off to the right and fall into the abyss.

Thus, whatever comes out of that Slider-Swimmer discussion, the drop is now high enough that this level should remain unaffected by any possible change regarding that matter.

[Proxima]

Okay... "You Scratch My Brick" may not be completely unfixable. Here's version 4.

[namida]

Especially considering the long range of the Laserer, steel absolutely needs to be able to stop it. If haven't tried going against one-way arrows or one-way fields with the Laserer yet.

Like all other destructive skills, force fields (and splitters) do not affect the skills - they may affect the lemming using it, but not the skill itself, until the lemming enters the one way field and himself turns around.

The laserer is indeed affected by one-way walls, on the other hand - a left-facing laserer can destroy one-way left but not one-way right and vice versa; while the laserer can destroy one-way up and cannot destroy one-way down.

[ericderkovits]

I just downloaded the experimental neolemmix player to see the new proposed skills. Not sure how I feel about them. At first I liked the laser blaster, but after trying the test level, this skill seems
kinda futuristic for a neolemmix game. Also the other ones not really sure either. Maybe it's because some of these were in L2 the Tribes, and they to me felt kinda silly.

I'm kinda happy with just the skills we have now. Also I'm kinda used to the original game where there is just the classic 8, also why I like Superlemmini.

But to me it doesn't matter which new proposed skills makes it in. Also maybe after a while, I'll get used to them and perhaps like them more. This is just my initial reaction to them, but after seeing
them more in peoples packs, then perhaps I'll be glad there availiable.

[WillLem]

Replays for the more recent levels/versions of levels. I'm sure some of these are backroutes, and I can no longer solve Proxima's!

These new skills are brilliant, there is definitely a lot of potential here!

[namida]

Just a heads up - I've created a separate topic for actually posting levels in, just so it's easier to find them (and in particular to find the latest versions).

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5227.0

Please move all existing level postings to that topic when you get a chance, and post new / updated levels in there from now on.

[Minim]

Hey, thanks for this useful link. The number of levels that everybody's created is amazing to the point of getting out of hand really. I will have a look into each and every one of them.

By the time we get a stable version, I'm thinking of reviving the Level Solving Contest, using some of the new skills. However, I haven't got any levels in mind. If anybody simply has a large enough level to be worthy of sheer experimentation then speak up.

[WillLem]

OK, so here are my replays for the levels I've managed to solve so far. I came close to solving Strato's The Creation, but there is one key element to this level which eluded me, and it's to do with Slider behaviour:

Spoiler

Sliders do not simply walk off the edge of a platform, bridge or block: they always turn around and drop backwards, even if the terrain piece is only 1px thick!

This behaviour is very unique to the Slider skill, and definitely lends itself well to puzzle creation. It makes it more than just another way to get down from a height: it's also

Spoiler

a way to turn a lemming around without needing Walkers

.

Therefore, the Slider is definitely top of my list from this bunch of new skills. That's not really saying much though coz they're all great!

[Strato Incendus]

Yes, that is one possible backroute to "Microcosm". I guess I will eventually have to enforce the 2-Laserer solution and cut the Spearer from this particular level.

"Thus spoke Zarathustra" was solved, as feared, with just one worker lemming instead of two. However, this is only possible due to the high ramp, which is needed as long as we have the current Slider-Swimmer behaviour. If this is changed, I can lower that ramp. If now, I'll have to dent the ceiling in such a way that you can't jump off the ramp to reach for the ceiling.

Have you seen my level "The Creation"? It wasn't in your "Strato Exp Skills levels" ZIP. And that one should definitely need the Spearer to work.

[IchoTolot]

I've taken a look at the solutions Strato's 3 levels now:

Microcosm

The slider confuses me here I must say. It only really turns around and gets a lemming down twice and that could be easily emulated with a slight level layout change:
Extending the water area to the area where he would land and give him a swimmer. Remove the ramp to the water pit so he can get out and a wall on the right so he can turn. That way it's secured that only the swimmer can turn there.
This would also make 1 builder not nessesary so it can be culled and make the level more backroute proofed.
The other 2 turnarounds at the spears and the builder cancel each other out and are just for looks.

Otherwise it nicely shows the spear serving as a ramp to land on for a shimmier.

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The Creation

Again, the slider usage seems a bit basic here as it just turns around a lem 2 times and not even bringing him down on another level. You also need into invest another builder just for turnarounds! And this results in me breaking the level wide open - attached a replay.

I think using another grenader or a well thrown spearer could be more backroute proofed there and you can cull that 2nd builder + the stacker!

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Thus spoke Zarathustra

This uses the slider better with the shimmier interaction. In general shimmiers tend to act well together with 3 of the 4 new skills. Although placing the big pillar at the right side just screams "simply glide into it to get down" instead of giving 2 extra shimmiers and the slider! This can be done by 1 glider if the terrain below is slightly extended.

But the slider shimmier transition is still one of the stronger points of the skill in my opinion.

The infinite holding pit at the bottom only would need 1 terrain block at the left and the top slider usage could be emulated with a lem jumping up again when he turned around at the right though.

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All in all, you showed nice tricks with the slider but especially the turning around one has a major flaw in your examples: You need extra skills to make it happen and especially the case of using the builder only to turn around a slider has so many possibilities for exploits as extra builders are easily exploitable. And the turning around part can easily be emulated by so many other interaction or slight terrain changes. My replay here would serve as an example.

This could be improved thogh: I suggest if you use a skill only to turn around a slider, make the skill do something else on top of that! This way the slider interaction helps making another nessesary skill in the level even more important!

I think this rule could be used to make better levels highlighting the uniqueness of the slider!

Again, I take the slider over a new object any day! I just see that it still can easily substituted in many cases by existing behaviors so the better levels will likely find ways to highlight unique features without giving out extra skills that lead to easy exploits. Namida's "Pendantic Phaser" would be a good example here.

Your levels made very good showcases for the spearer and laserer though. Especially in combination with the shimmier.

[Strato Incendus]

This could be improved thogh: I suggest if you use a skill only to turn around a slider, make the skill do something else on top of that! This way the slider interaction helps making another nessesary skill in the level even more important!

Yeah, indeed I tried to do exactly that on "Microcosm": I wanted the staircase to both turn around the Slider and simultaneously break the fall from above out of the Laserer tunnel.
But I couldn't see a way to make the drop higher without breaking the path for the Shimmier. At least not initially.
Now, instead of moving everything up, including the exit (which would have broken the Basher trick on the left), I've connected the different altitudes with a slope of the maximal possible Shimmier-friendly increase (45°).

I've attached an edited version of the level and a new replay. Removed the Fencer, the Spearers (because they could be used like Stoners to break the fall on the right), as well as one Builder, because stacking at the end of the Laserer tunnel is enough to prevent the crowd from falling out.

Interestingly, the Slider survives a drop out of the Laserer tunnel, even when not landing on the staircase - but if the crowd falls from the same height, it does not survive.
However, this should not be a matter of 1 pixel, i.e. precision:
I think it's because the Slider's feet are actually already much lower (8 pixels) when he turns into a Faller? Since he's dangling from the ceiling before he falls, whereas a regular Walker turns into a Faller immediately after losing ground.

It's kind of similar to how, as a kid, jumping down from something high seems much more dangerous when you're standing upright, compared to when you're crowching down before you jump... at least it took me a while as a kid to understand that the height I was jumping down was actually the same.

This could be a devious little trick, where you can use Sliders to break falls even in such cases where there isn't actually a straight wall to slide down...

I will also put the update in the levels thread where we collect them all; this is just to respond to IchoTolot's point.

Although placing the big pillar at the right side just screams "simply glide into it to get down" instead of giving 2 extra shimmiers and the slider!

In fact, I originally intended for the lemming to have to jump over to the pillar to slide, instead of sliding down the steel and transitioning straight into a Shimmier. The pillar remained in there as a red herring.


Your minor backroute to "The Creation" was also interesting; this shows how the Spearer can create shortcuts similar to the Stoner. Not quite as powerful, of course, because you still need another lemming to place the spear correctly first, whereas Stoners can just break falls and provide a "foothold" for Builders when coming from the same side as the worker lemming. But still... these types of "drop down and go around the obstacle (in this case the steel wall that's supposed to prevent you from building from the right) from below" shortcuts are easy to overlook. Or rather, so far I only ever thought of them when providing Stoners.

[WillLem]

Have you seen my level "The Creation"? It wasn't in your "Strato Exp Skills levels" ZIP. And that one should definitely need the Spearer to work.

Yes, I've tried it several times and was unable to come up with a solution. After watching your replay, I'm certain that the reason for the no-solve was because

Spoiler

it didn't occur to me that a Slider would turn and drop from the edge of a Builder bridge: this is even more key to the solution of this level than any of the other assignments!

This is a clever trick, and makes it a particularly interesting level amongst this bunch. The more of these sorts of tricks we learn, the better our ability to solve levels!