[DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion

[IchoTolot]

I haven't looked at the level yet, but have you tried to modify the wall in a way so that the big grenader crater will ruin the solution.

Example: The OWW shall be destroyed by a basher.

- Make a thin floor with water below so that an explosion too close will lead to death.

- Make a few zombie prison cells a bit upwards over the supposed basher tunnel in the block so that the bigger explosion will dent+release them.

[Strato Incendus]

First and foremost, I had to edit this level again to prevent another backroute, this time involving the Slider. What we need to keep in mind is that now, when providing Shimmiers in combination with Sliders, 90° angles are suddenly Shimmier-friendly. However, while the Slider is a permanent skill, every 90°-transition from Shimmier to Slider requires another instance of a Shimmier to transition back from Slider to Shimmier once he reaches the next 90° angle. So this is how you can keep those paths in check.

I've added a steel square to prevent the Slider shortcut; nothing that inteferes with the intended solution nor either of the backroutes.

- Make a thin floor with water below so that an explosion too close will lead to death.

- Make a few zombie prison cells a bit upwards over the supposed basher tunnel in the block so that the bigger explosion will dent+release them.

Those are good suggestions, IchoTolot - indeed I've seen these applied a couple of times to fix Bomber backroutes. Or at least "Bomber backroutes that only continue to work if you can make the lemming a Climber before" (like the example with the thin floor and water underneath).

With the Grenader, however, because you can vary the height of the impact depending on from where you throw, it's more like the player always has the choice between "walking Bomber" (=grenade close up to the wall) and "climbing Bomber" (=grenade thrown from further away).

The Zombie approach would require the Zombies to be inside the one-way wall, at such a height that indeed the grenade would free them but the Basher wouldn't. Since that is going to look quite ugly, and the Zombies will be completely irrelevant to the intended solution, I would consider this another "last resort" on par with making the Grenader a pickup skill.

In this particular level, one could not make all Grenaders a pickup skill, because one is required right at the start. However, of course some of them could be made into pickups.

Spoiler

It actually doesn't work to have the Slider land on the left side first, then throw the grenade himself to break through the ground, and continue sliding - because once he reaches the bottom, he immediately turns around and faces the fire trap already on the very first frame of being a Walker. Great way to enforce throwing from afar!

As I said, I'm not even that strongly opposed to the current Grenader crater size and shape (funnily enough, in this level I noticed that when you throw strictly from above and hit the ground with the grenade, the crater does actually look pretty circular already). Personally, I would still accept the Grenader as it is right now and be perfectly happy about it.

We just need to be very aware of its dangers, and that indeed, such "last resort" measures as almost making Grenaders pickup skills by default on most levels where they appear (which would at least be in-flavour, gotta pick up the grenade before you can use it ), or placing Zombies at awkward spots, might be required more often than not to keep those levels backroute-proof.

[IchoTolot]

The Zombie approach would require the Zombies to be inside the one-way wall, at such a height that indeed the grenade would free them but the Basher wouldn't. Since that is going to look quite ugly, and the Zombies will be completely irrelevant to the intended solution, I would consider this another "last resort" on par with making the Grenader a pickup skill.

Let's just say if you don't want to use pick-ups, zombies,..... some backroutes won't be fixable. This is a general rule for all skills!

At some point you just want too much in a level, parts and tricks that are not compatible as they wil ALWAYS result in backroutes. I've had this sooo many times! I needed to include pick-ups in a lot of level or otherwise they would not have been fixable.

Some things simply do not work out without those extra little tools - especially pick-ups. It's just how it is.

So be aware of that if you want to strictly limit yourself. Sometimes an intented solution is just too ambitious.

On another note: Don't forget to check out my slider+spearer combo level. This should be a more efficient+faster containment method compared to your earlier method with an extra builder 

[WillLem]

But to accept your "challenge", I've created a second level containing four Grenaders, each of which is supposed to go into a different spot.

Awesome! This is a neat little level. To be fair, I'd say that backroute 2 is just as satisfying a solution as what's intended, albeit simpler (and could make the level a lot smaller).

Anyways, thank you for providing this level; now we have an actual example that we can discuss. I've attached a possible fix which preserves your intended solution. Whilst I will admit that I had to spend a bit of time figuring out how to make it so that the Grenade could reach from the other side of a thicker OWW, it was otherwise a very easy fix.

Anyway, you have proven your point - I did have to spend time fixing this backroute, and that's what we're trying to prevent here, so I will concede.

However, this level was built under the condition of proving this point. If the same level were being built from scratch, surely the first thing the designer would do is make sure that the OWW is thick enough so that 4 Grenaders couldn't get through it! Everything else could then simply be designed around that.

With the Grenader, however, because you can vary the height of the impact depending on from where you throw,

So, make the wall shorter. If anything, this is a good argument for keeping the larger crater!

Personally, I would still accept the Grenader as it is right now and be perfectly happy about it.

I think this is something we can all agree on

The Zombie approach would... look quite ugly... I would consider this another "last resort" on par with making the Grenader a pickup skill.

I agree here. I've recently ditched a few levels because the backroute-proofing was getting way too complicated and distracting. If that's happening though, it probably isn't a very good level anyway!

Let's just say if you don't want to use pick-ups, zombies,..... some backroutes won't be fixable. This is a general rule for all skills!
...
Sometimes an intented solution is just too ambitious.

Amen!

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for your suggestion of a backroute fix, WillLem! I was a little concerned about the lowered height at first, because I thought that was necessary to enforce the Slider use instead of just jumping over. But because I had increased the width of the gap on the left long after I had increased the level height, the Slider is now needed either way because the Jumper would just land in the fire trap, even though the fall height by itself would be survivable.

The remaining Basher was just because apparently, I made a double-assignment in my intended solution. That could be prevented in backroute 2 (despite me throwing the grenade straight at the Blocker and then bashing, instead of throwing it infront of the Blocker and then bashing to free him, as you did). So it's not like that additional Basher were absolutely required to keep anyone from the crowd from slipping out.

However, this level was built under the condition of proving this point. If the same level were being built from scratch, surely the first thing the designer would do is make sure that the OWW is thick enough so that 4 Grenaders couldn't get through it! Everything else could then simply be designed around that.

Yes, confirmation bias is a thing, which is why I was a little sceptical about this challenge in the first place, because you gave me an obvious incentive to do a bad job at backroute fixing . But I didn't want to just dismiss the challenge on those grounds, and I didn't want to make it too easy for myself. Therefore, I made sure each of the four grenades had a proper, intended use in the level, instead of just providing excess Grenaders so that you would have enough to get through the wall (because excess skills, this is where we all agree, can always lead to backroutes, no matter which skill type).

Some things simply do not work out without those extra little tools - especially pick-ups. It's just how it is.

So be aware of that if you want to strictly limit yourself. Sometimes an intented solution is just too ambitious.

I like the term "ambitious" solutions here! So far, I just called them solutions that were more complicated than any backroute one could find. But this is a much nicer and more concise term!

When in doubt, I'd personally rather resort to pickup skills than to contained Zombies. This "don't bomb here or you'll release the Zombies" approach to me is more like "don't bomb here or a deadly liquid will spill on the lemmings' heads". It's just that water or lava doesn't spill out when you remove the ground underneath it. Therefore, water can only prevent bombing from below, whereas Zombies are one of the few ways to prevent bombing from above.

On another note: Don't forget to check out my slider+spearer combo level. This should be a more efficient+faster containment method compared to your earlier method with an extra builder

I had already watched it on YouTube long before you pointed to it here on the forums . I also commented on your video, you might just not have seen it yet?

[IchoTolot]

I had already watched it on YouTube long before you pointed to it here on the forums . I also commented on your video, you might just not have seen it yet?

Let's say YouTube thought it would be a good idea to put it inside the spam section and give me no notification.

[WillLem]

Nice levels, NieSch!

Don't Get Cold Feet is a really nice, neat little puzzle! It took me a while to get the

Spoiler

Jumper to Shimmier transition

correct, but I got there in the end!

My solution to Bookends to the Rescue is possibly a backroute...

[NieSch]

Thanks! Yes, backroute to the first version I posted. There's a V2 that fixes it.

I really like the long distance interactions that the grenader and spearer provide. And the slider just looks great.

[Strato Incendus]

Just a quick heads up: How long is the experimental phase planned to last again, anyway?

NeoLemmix 12.10 was released some time in November, as far as I recall, so I would assume it will at least take the entirety of January until we might be heading towards a release candidate. Of course, even longer if certain physics questions etc. still need to be discussed. But at the moment (not just right now before Christmas, but also in the last 1-2 weeks), the opposite seems to be the case: The discussion has become rather quiet.

[IchoTolot]

Patience!

We just had the new release and still need to adjust/try out some alternative set-ups of the skills.

For example we are still discussing the range of the laser and that needs to be tested as well.

But at the moment (not just right now before Christmas, but also in the last 1-2 weeks), the opposite seems to be the case: The discussion has become rather quiet.

Take a guess on why.

People are working on christmas packs, traveling home, or have other things to do.

[WillLem]

Replays for namida's levels. The only one I'm sure isn't a backroute is "Pedantic Phaser", because when I sent the last replay it was confirmed as intended, and the solution hasn't changed

[Proxima]

Replays for WillLem's Fun-type levels. This was definitely an interesting way to get accustomed to what the new skills feel like. I have to say that in Fun-type levels, spearers and grenaders in particular can give rise to spammy solutions that get tiresome rather quickly... but this is still a great way to get a feel for what the skills can do, which helps to get me very excited for the kinds of puzzles that can be built with them!

[WillLem]

As a Christmas treat, I did an LP of Proxima's "Amethyst" levels featuring the new skills. Here's the video; it's edited for presentation but I deliberately kept in some of the moments when I was struggling with placements/assignments in order to highlight potential issues with the new skills.

For the most part, all 4 function very effectively and I can see them being excellent additions to NeoLemmix's roster of skills, with perhaps a bit more tweaking.

Feedback on the levels:

These are a great set of not-too-difficult puzzles to play through and get used to the various basic applications of the 4 new skills. I would have personally preferred less restrictive skillsets much of the time, but I can certainly see the benefit in being made to think more carefully about how to place the skill assignments.

The maps are absolutely beautiful. As well as being aesthetically very well presented and pleasingly reminiscent of the original games, they're also the sorts of maps which you could theoretically assign a range of different skillsets to and find a workable puzzle. That being the case, I anticipate that GemLems will be a great pack for challenges, remixes and all sorts of good stuff in the future.

It's good that you're taking your time with the pack, Proxima. You have a careful artist's hand and the love you've put into these designs is evident. Keep up the good work!

My favourite maps: "Four Bar Blues" / "Bashenberg" / "Solid Gold" / "For Flopsy" / "For Arty" / "In The Gallery Of Frost"
My favourite puzzles: "Fall Of The Roman Lempire" / "Drop Box" / "Doing The Lembeth Walk" / "In The Gallery Of Frost"

[WillLem]

Whilst LPing Proxima's pack of new-skills levels, I noticed that Spears still change position after having been thrown, and when framestepping.

I've timestamped the video here so you can see what I mean: watch the spear bridge carefully when I perform a backwards frameskip.

[Proxima]

Thank you WillLem for the LP and feedback!

A little bit of trivia about these levels:

* Level 1 "Ascension Day" is the only level with a different title from its GemLems counterpart. It was originally "It's time to climb", but I changed that because the new-skills version doesn't give any climbers
* A couple of levels have had the trapdoor or exit moved to accommodate the space needed for spearer/grenader arcs.
* Other than this, the only layout change is in Level 6 "Bashenberg", where I removed the proxima_tile fire object because the new-skills exp only accepts the original and ohno styles.
* Level 12 "For Flopsy" is a riff on the "hard-for-Flopsy" meme (levels with RR 99 and lemmings heading for immediate danger). This level meets the letter of those requirements, but isn't hard at all.
* Levels 19 "In the Gallery of Frost" and 20 "The Social Network" are consecutive levels in the Crystal style. However, in GemLems, those are levels 21 and 25 respectively. Levels 22 and 24 were cut for using non-original tilesets, and Level 23 for being a splat trapdoor level (the one instance where sliders can't substitute for floaters).