[SUG][SKILL - SWIMMER] Exit transition from ceiling water

[WillLem]

At the moment, Swimmers can exit a pool of water by climbing out via a vertical piece of terrain, or walking out via a diagonal piece of terrain (i.e. one that's already walk-uppable by a regular lem).

I suggest that the same be possible for lems swimming through upside-down water; if they reach a diagonal slope, they are carried out of the water the extra pixel and transition to a faller. Hitting vertical terrain can of course turn them around, as normal (unless they're a Climber, in which case they'd climb vertically as far as they can anyway).

[namida]

No. Upside down water is still just water, and it will function exactly the same way as any other water.

[Proxima]

WillLem should have mentioned what the current behaviour actually is so that we have a point of comparison.

I just checked. A swimmer in water hitting a 45 degree slope will slide down it until they reach the bottom of the water object, and then will turn round.

To me, this feels really weird -- I would expect them to fall out at that point. Doesn't matter whether the water is upside-down or not (as namida says, flipping the water is purely aesthetic; from a game-mechanical point of view it is still a rectangle of water pixels)

[Strato Incendus]

This is indeed something I was also confused about when I first discovered it while making my very first pack, Paralems - and one of the reasons why the level "Skies aflame" (which happens to have upside-down water, but as namida and Proxima have said, that doesn't affect its functionality) requires a Basher at the end to get the Swimmers out of the water, instead of them falling down at the bottom of the water area.

Especially when designing levels with the Speedy-Eggbert tilesets by Jaimie (Techno and House), this is confusing, because in the actual game Speedy Eggbert, falling out of the water when you reach the bottom is exactly what happens.

However, I'm not sure how many levels would be affected by this if the behaviour were changed now. My level "Skies aflame" would be one example (though I'd say that particular level would change for the better, since that's what I originally wanted). I can't name any other examples off the top of my head, though I'm sure there will be at least a few.

[namida]

Ah I see.

On one hand, I'm not worried about breaking content because this is obviously a bug, and NL has never made any effort to preserve levels (or other content) that exploits obvious bugs.

On the other hand, not really sure that we want to encourage levels where we have swimmers falling out the bottom of water, which is only marginally more logical anyway.

At any rate, this is a 12.11 or 12.13 fix if any change does occur, not 12.10 (or 12.12). So for now, I'll leave this open to be discussed.

[WillLem]

On the other hand, not really sure that we want to encourage levels where we have swimmers falling out the bottom of water, which is only marginally more logical anyway.

I can see what you mean: it's conceivable that a Swimmer realises they have reached the bottom of the water area, and so swims back up rather than allowing themselves to drop out of the bottom. However, if they have been forced to descend through the water by a slope (in the same way that a slope can force them up out of the water), then perhaps they should drop out. That would in fact be more consistent with the way that the top edge of a water trigger works, and would be another useful way to allow Swimmers to exit the water.

Regarding Swimmers falling out of the bottom of the water from a design point of view, I suggest that this is really no different from allowing lemmings to fall at all; it's analogous with a walking lemming reaching the edge of a platform, but in this case it's a swimming lemming reaching the bottom of the water. Figuring out ways to stop it from happening could also make for decent puzzles, and could also help to raise the profile of the Swimmer skill in general (which is really what my main concern is here).

[Strato Incendus]

Well, I assume this is just an issue referring to the Swimmer's position trigger:

While the trigger is inside water, the lemming will always try to move to the top of the water area.
While the trigger area is outside the water / in the air, the lemming will be a Faller.

Thus follows:

If the slope never causes the position trigger to leave the water at the bottom of the trigger area, then the lemming should indeed not fall, but turn around and go back up, as the water area would force him to do, and as it is right now.

If however the slope causes the position trigger to leave the water at the bottom of the trigger area, the lemming should automatically turn into a Faller.

[namida]

To me, that sounds like two mutually exclusive behaviors, so perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Could you make a visual example?

[WillLem]

Could you make a visual example?

Examples 1 and 2 show current Swimmer behaviour, Example 3 is what we're suggesting could happen when a Swimmer's trigger area is forced to descend completely below the water by at least 1px:



At present, the Swimmer's trigger area cannot be forced to descend below the water in this way; as soon as the trigger hits the bottom of the water, the lem simply turns around and carries on Swimming in the opposite direction. My suggestion is that any slope which descends to the very bottom of the water trigger can be used to force the Swimmer to also descend below the water and transition to Faller. If the slope does not descend below the water (as per Example 2), then the Swimmer continues in the same direction.

I think the confusion has perhaps come from what Strato said about the Swimmer turning around and going back the other way if the slope does not descend to the bottom of the water; this is not actually what I'm suggesting. Any slope which doesn't descend to the very bottom pixel of the water's trigger area should be traversable by a Swimmer (again, as per Example 2). They would only turn around if the bottom of the slope becomes a vertical wall whilst still within the water's trigger, like this:



EDIT: To be extra clear, the base of the slope would have to be touching the very bottom pixel of the water trigger (or below) in order for the Swimmer's trigger to drop below the water. In other words, Swimmers will always try to go past the end of a slope if they can. Only 2 things would stop them from doing so: a) the slope touching the bottom edge of the water trigger, which causes the lem to exit the water and transition to Faller, or b) the slope ending with a vertical wall whilst still within the water trigger, which causes the lem to turn around as usual

EDIT 2: To be extra extra clear, in these examples, "vertical wall" simply means any vertical terrain currently not traversable by a Swimmer; I'm not sure what the exact terrain height has to be in order for the a Swimmer to not continue past it, but this of course should remain the same. The only change being suggested is that Swimmer triggers be allowed to drop below water if forced to do so by sloping terrain.

[WillLem]

Quick bump for this - thoughts?

[namida]

I need to take a proper look at it at some point before I give further input. However, it is on my list as something to look at before V12.11 is released: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5173.0

[WillLem]

Brill

[IchoTolot]

I just looked at the situation and it seems to me that the rule that keeps the lemming inside the water's trigger area at the top works the same way at the bottom only this time the lemming can't step out of the water pit as he cannot step downwards.

So simply put it this way: To get outside of a pit the lemming seems to need to step out of it. He can do that at the side of a water pit (or the top when there is a ramp leading into the water), but not the bottom as he cannot step downwards. This leads to the turn as a result.

So this seems consistent with the rules in game to me, but I cannot deny it looking a bit awkward. Well, the whole concept of upside down water at the ceiling is awkward.

That leaves me with two points on this:

1.) I would not change the behavior if the fixing would cause other behaviors to change in physics as well as this is a VERY niche situation and changing base behaviors at this point to address extremely rare situations seem counterproductive to me as this it not really gamebreaking. (Just a bit clunky)

2.) I slightly tend towards a change though when this can be fixed with a few special "upside-down water" checks that don't affect other behaviors. As this still seems awkward to me even if it should be in line with the current physic's logic.

[Proxima]

As I pointed out earlier, the weird behaviour occurs with any water, not just upside-down water.

[WillLem]

but not the bottom as he cannot step downwards... So this seems consistent with the rules in game to me

It's not about the lem stepping out, it's more that I think the lem should fall out. At the moment it's as if some invisible force field is stopping the lem from falling out of the bottom of the water trigger.

I slightly tend towards a change though when this can be fixed with a few special "upside-down water" checks that don't affect other behaviors.

As Proxima said, this isn't really about "upside-down water" either (although that is, admittedly, the situation where this physics bug is most likely to be noticed). The behaviour occurs in any water trigger area, whether upside-down or not.

If this is fixed, it will make the Swimmer a far more useful skill.