[DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)

[WillLem]

+1 for green height, but red length is better. Strongly in favour of longer horizontal range, in general.

[namida]

+1 for green height, but red length is better. Strongly in favour of longer horizontal range, in general.

When used on a flat surface, the horizontal range is unchanged - see the reference line. It's a natural consequence of the steeper curve, that once it gets past the point of "back to the height it started at", it doesn't cover as much ground - simply because of the faster downwards movement.

If you were to make it "same horizontal range for that exact setup shown in that screenshot", this in turn means it now has more horizontal range than the red curve did if the shot doesn't end up falling as low - and that beyond that point, it'll still have less range, just not by as much.

[WillLem]

When used on a flat surface, the horizontal range is unchanged - see the reference line. It's a natural consequence of the steeper curve, that once it gets past the point of "back to the height it started at", it doesn't cover as much ground - simply because of the faster downwards movement.

If you were to make it "same horizontal range for that exact setup shown in that screenshot", this in turn means it now has more horizontal range than the red curve did if the shot doesn't end up falling as low - and that beyond that point, it'll still have less range, just not by as much.

I'm not sure I understand. A curve of any height can be stretched horizontally without changing its height...? Or, are you referring to the specifics of the way that this skill works?

[namida]

It's not anywhere close to impossible, to stretch the curve horizontally.

However, using the red curve as a point of reference isn't so simple, because the increased gradient of the green curve (which gives it the extra height) in turn has implications on the horizontal range, which are not as simple as just "longer" or "shorter".

If we were to look at these two curves on a flat surface they'd have almost the same horizontal range - a pixel or two different, due to that the projectile starts at (roughly) the lemming's head height, not at ground height. Above this, the green curve has more range, below this, the red curve does.

See the new attached image. It now has three white lines - the highest one is 16px above the projectile's starting height, the middle one is at the projectile's starting height, the bottom one is 16px below the projectile's starting height. Note that which one has more horizontal range, is different at each line - the green curve does on the top line, the red curve does on the bottom line, and they're equal on the middle one (which is what I actually used as a reference for the new curve - kept the same "at starting height" horizontal range, while making the peak higher).

I'm not the best at explaining this; if it's not clear, hopefully someone a bit more maths-y can do a better job of it.

[Strato Incendus]

Looking at the skill panel again: Can the grenade maybe get a different colour, just like the spear?

The Spearer is easy enough to distinguish from the Basher thanks to that colour difference, but the Grenadier can be mistaken for a Basher with two heads.

In general: Would the grenade be expected to change colours depending on the tileset, just like bricks (Builder / Platformer / Stacker) and the Spear?

[WillLem]

the increased gradient of the green curve (which gives it the extra height) in turn has implications on the horizontal range, which are not as simple as just "longer" or "shorter"

I understand now. Even if you were to stretch the green curve to where the red curve meets the ground, they would continue from there in the same manner as where they intersect on the middle line in your example, i.e. the red curve has a more shallow diminuendo and so continues further horizontally, and the green curve has a steeper diminuendo and continues further vertically (that is, from the "meeting point", in each case).

I tried it in Paint and it doesn't matter how far along the lines meet, the result is always the same. That being the case, I'd vote for somewhere between the green and the red curve, so that there's a better balance of height vs distance.

EDIT: Looking at the results of the poll, it doesn't look like it makes any difference anyway

[namida]

Looking at the skill panel again: Can the grenade maybe get a different colour, just like the spear?

Absolutely open to graphics tweaks, but (unless needed to avoid the graphics and physics being "out of sync" with each other) they won't happen until after the skills are confirmed. Again - it's only really physics that are up for discussion at the moment.

In general: Would the grenade be expected to change colours depending on the tileset, just like bricks (Builder / Platformer / Stacker) and the Spear?

Current graphic no, in general it's definitely something that could be considered.

[IchoTolot]

I tried it in Paint and it doesn't matter how far along the lines meet, the result is always the same. That being the case, I'd vote for somewhere between the green and the red curve, so that there's a better balance of height vs distance.

How about keeping the height of green, but buffing the horizontal range by an additional 16 pixels?

I think the height is important for the skill and therefore rather than cutting height for range why not simply incresing the range a bit. We don't have to sacrifice one for the other here!

[Proxima]

Sorry to keep harping on this, but greater range is not necessarily better. Increasing the range increases the number of places you can stand from to hit point X, which increases the complexity of any level where it's not obvious how to get to a good throwing point. There's also the aesthetic consideration: increase the range, and you force the designer to provide open space for the skill to be useful (like the Pole Vaulter in L2, but... not quite that bad )

I still feel, mostly on instinct, that the green arc is too wide and it would be better to rein it in a little.

[namida]

How about keeping the height of green, but buffing the horizontal range by an additional 16 pixels?

Do you mean 16px on a flat surface, or...?

Sorry to keep harping on this, but greater range is not necessarily better. Increasing the range increases the number of places you can stand from to hit point X, which increases the complexity of any level where it's not obvious how to get to a good throwing point. There's also the aesthetic consideration: increase the range, and you force the designer to provide open space for the skill to be useful (like the Pole Vaulter in L2, but... not quite that bad )

I definitely can see your point about how it could become too complex; it's a concern I have been keeping in mind. It's more of a strike against the Spearer in particular, where the distance travelled can also affect the angle of the created terrain (whereas the grenader has the same area of effect no matter what angle it hits terrain at).

[IchoTolot]

How about keeping the height of green, but buffing the horizontal range by an additional 16 pixels?

Do you mean 16px on a flat surface, or...?

Yes.

Although Proxima's concern is something we should keep in mind, as making the arc too huge could have a negative impact. I don't think it's a problem yet though.

[WillLem]

Maybe the grenadier shouldn't throw grenades, but should instead throw balls of explosive light! Grenades are a little bit too close to a certain turn-based artillery strategy game I could mention...

[namida]

Maybe the grenadier shouldn't throw grenades, but should instead throw balls of explosive light! Grenades are a little bit too close to a certain turn-based artillery strategy game I could mention...

I was thinking of having them throw exploding sheep, but it's hard to animate that at an acceptable size.

[IchoTolot]

Maybe the grenadier shouldn't throw grenades, but should instead throw balls of explosive light! Grenades are a little bit too close to a certain turn-based artillery strategy game I could mention...

Well, Lemmings already threw grenades in Lemmings 3.

Also, I think throwing normal grenades isn't really something a game could claim exclusivity on. A HOLY grenade would be a different story.

[Strato Incendus]

I was thinking of having them throw exploding sheep, but it's hard to animate that at an acceptable size.

How about a banana?

Also, I think throwing normal grenades isn't really something a game could claim exclusivity on.

As is shooting a Bazooka, like in Lemmings 2. Both Bazookas and Grenades exist in Worms, and both are staples of that game.

But I've already said previously that I'm going to make a bunch of more Worms levels with these skills anyway, if they make it into a stable version .