Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[Armani]

@Kaywhyn
You totally backrouted both of my level

Neolemtris : As you might guess, Jumpers and a shimmier is not for delaying purpose. Increasing RR will block that.

Horenet flight : Same here. shimmier is not for delaying purpose. A fencer is now a pick-up skill

[NieSch]

niesch's Welcome to the Twilight Zone R2 V1

Wow, this one is extremely deceiving and quite tough. The skillset may seem very open, but in actuality is very tight. Still, nice level and so far the only level of yours that I was able to solve.

Great job!

I had a different solution in mind, but I knew there would be multiple possibilities. They key thing is the same:

Spoiler

finding a route between the upper and the bottom one. The "twilight zone" you could say.

[NieSch]

I backrouted Dullstar's rule 1 level, V2.

[Nessy]

Regarding Icho's R1 rule: I pre-tested all of Icho's contest levels, and as he would agree with me: "Intended!"

Nessy's solution to my R1 is 100% intended. Good job!

Excellent

Also I resolved Armani's Rule 1 level and it should now be 100% intended (hopefully!)

[ericderkovits]

yes kaywhyn backrouted my level so I changed it by:

1) altering 1st gap a bit
2) adding more flamethrowers.
3) adding left-facing OWW's right of transporter exit(vertical thin bar-no bashing there)
4) changed 7 of the builders to pickup skills.

Note: fixing backroutes are always going to be an issue with anybodys levels whether the person is new at designing levels(like me) or more experienced(as Armani's R1 level is already at version 3) and even Icho's
United goes through many updates.

Also I'm not the greatest designer so my levels in Angry lemmings may be boring but that's ok. Also this is why it takes so long to design levels. Nobody can get it right with just the 1st version unless it's meant
to be open-ended as with many 1st rank levels of most packs.

Note: also Kaywhyn you should try designing levels sometime, it kind of fun. Also fun to see peoples replays on your designed levels(even when you have to backroute fix them).
         

[kaywhyn]

Well, I've been on a solving frenzy the last few days with the contest levels. I've taken a look at the R3 levels and was able to solve all of them, and they're probably all backroutes except for mantha16's level. So, find my replays for the R3 levels attached. Again, I pre-tested Icho's R3 level, and so my feedback/replay for his level is omitted.

 Armani's Marina Bay Sands

This is likely a backroute, considering I used the simple blocker to hold back the crowd and I don't use the climber. So, might I had been successful in backrouting all 3 of your contest levels?

Crane's Hell's Challenger

I honestly thought this was going to be another level of yours that I wouldn't be able to solve, but nope, I was able to. Before, I kept shimmying from the bottom and no matter what I wouldn't be able to get high enough to get over the top and mine to the exit and the crowd out due to running out of jumpers/stoners/stackers/shimmiers. Once I realized that I could stone under the entrance, then it was smooth sailing from there. I do have some miners leftover, as well as a platformer and stoner leftover, so backroute?

Mantha16's Lemception

Wow, this is a really nice looking level! A not too difficult contest level of yours for once. Not that I mind difficult levels, I love the challenges they pose. Also, didn't you say you don't like zombie levels? Maybe I'm just remembering wrong.

Nessy's Abandoned Memory

First off, your level looks awesome, Nessy! This is the very first level of yours that I have ever played and solved. Until this contest, I have only played Icho's, namida's, and strato's levels from playing United, Lemmings Plus Alpha, and Lemmicks/Paralems/Pit Lems, respectively. Don't worry, I have plans to take on both your Lemmings Destination and Lemmings Migration packs soon.

Anyway, this is a great level that turned out to be quite difficult, although I might had backrouted it. I don't use the teleporter near the right entrance, and I simply left the RR at 1 the entire time so that the teleporter never overflows. I even managed to save 1 over the requirement.

Before this solution I came up with, I tried several other things that I couldn't get to work. In particular, mining from over the top which is just too high to get the right crowd up, and plus even if I was successful then I wouldn't use the teleporters at all. Also, I got to say that I didn't realize that was empty air where the eyes and mouth were, so I was taken by surprise when the miner stopped.

Note: also Kaywhyn you should try designing levels sometime, it kind of fun. Also fun to see peoples replays on your designed levels(even when you have to backroute fix them).         

Yes, as I have mentioned I will definitely get into level designing, just not this contest. The next one for sure. Also, I would urge you to take the time to play and solve these levels yourself. It's how one gets better at level solving. Think about how unfair it is for those who actually put in the time to play and solve the levels while you download the replays, watch them, and then attempt to imitate what you see. The biggest problem I've seen with this is that it tends to make the player one-sided and think the replay is the only solution to the level when in fact there might be multiple solutions. I'm sure level designing is hard work, but level solving can be just as time consuming. That's why I only watch after I solve the level myself first just to compare my solution to other players.

@Kaywhyn
You totally backrouted both of my level

Neolemtris : As you might guess, Jumpers and a shimmier is not for delaying purpose. Increasing RR will block that.

Horenet flight : Same here. shimmier is not for delaying purpose. A fencer is now a pick-up skill

That's me all right. I'm apparently the backroute king

Rule3_03 Ichotolot's Temple Of Escher

Spoiler

Let's see if someone manages to save even more skills!

Here's the solution that save 5 skills
I really love the music. It sounds calm and mysterious, well fitting with the level.

You are amazing, Armani! You managed to save way more than both Icho and me. At first, I thought you were the one Icho was referring to in his post who saved two skills, but I'm guessing it might be josh. Not only are you definitely one of the best solvers, you're also a great level designer to boot!


Thus, I have now seen all of the contest levels and I was able to save all of the R2 and R3 levels. Now I just need to go back and solve the 3 R1 levels I wasn't able to, as well as resolve both of Armani's R1 and R2 levels, as well as Dullstar's R1 and ericderkovits' R1 level. And of course, any other R2 and R3 levels I might had backrouted in the meantime.

Overall, excellent work to all the contest entrants! I honestly thought I be able to breeze through all these levels very quickly. Nope, I was very wrong! Most of them turned out to be quite difficult even for someone like me who recently solved all of United but still need to go back and resolve the remaining 6 backroute patched levels in that pack. However, I still enjoyed the levels of those who I played for the very first time. Come to think of it, I think all of you I played levels by for the very first time, with the exception of Icho, of course. Once again, let me emphasize that you managing to stump even me is not necessarily a bad thing. Quite the contrary, as I love a good challenge, and I felt these contest levels challenged me enough appropriately to really make me think. In the end, I found it quite satisfying when the solution finally came to me and clicked and I was able to solve them!

Anyway, here's hoping I'll be able to solve the 3 R1 levels I haven't been able to yet, as well as being able to resolve the newest versions of some R1 and R2 levels. Also, I can't wait to see other solutions to Icho's R2 level from any/all of you if you're able to solve it. I admit that when I pre-tested it that it looks and feels overwhelming, but honestly it's more tricky than difficult. And of course, I'm looking forward to other R1/R2/R3 solutions.

[Armani]

This is likely a backroute, considering I used the simple blocker to hold back the crowd and I don't use the climber. So, might I had been successful in backrouting all 3 of your contest levels?

You are amazing, Armani! You managed to save way more than both Icho and me. At first, I thought you were the one Icho was referring to in his post who saved two skills, but I'm guessing it might be josh. Not only are you definitely one of the best solvers, you're also a great level designer to boot!

I'm flattered . I'm really glad you like my level. And, yes. You managed to backroute all my contest levels. I added some steels to block the backroute you found. I put a lot of effort into polishing puzzle as well as aesthetics. So I hope this update will lead you to intended way. Rule1 and Rule2 levels are not that difficult. Rule3 level is more difficult than those 2, but I'm quite sure it doesn't apply to you.

Also I resolved Armani's Rule 1 level and it should now be 100% intended (hopefully!)

Yes now you reached 100%

[mantha16]

no you are right I am not keen on Zombie levels but Namida didn't understand this and I tend to just believe whatever Namida says re lemmings lol. Basically I'd be in the cult of Namida if it was a thing.

but what your feedback proves to me is I have absolutely no idea about the difficulty of my levels as I thought Lemception was the hardest of them

[ericderkovits]

hi Willem nice to have another entry for the contest. I solved your level. Like me I prefer easier levels.

anyways here is my replay for your entry The Diving Area.

Also I entered the contest. Mine in called This Room is boiling. Like me my level is probably the easiest one of these other entries. Although it's lenghty and I had to make a 2nd version as Kaywhyn backrouted it.

Edit: never mind You changed it real quick. I'll try to solve your version 2 of it


Edit: ok I solved your version 2 of it. You had 3 jumpers, but I solved it only using 2. ok here is my replay

[WillLem]

Wow! That was very quick. Just checked the solution and it's a backroute that's still possible with the new version. I'll get another update done now I guess!

[kaywhyn]

Resolved Armani's R1, R2, and R3, as well as Dullstar's R1. Sorry Armani, your changes to your R1 and R3 have not prevented me from doing the exact same solution. Even though Nessy has the intended solution for your R1, I still backrouted it. I guess I really am the king of backroutes Your R2 should be intended now!

Armani's NeoLemtris R1 V3

No changes to my solution here except for a stacker to hold back the crowd. Otherwise, the exact same solution, BUT I was able to save way more skills this time around due to not using any jumpers except for 1.

Armani's Hornet Flight R2 V2

This should be intended now! It surprisingly gave me a lot of problems after the change, but luckily I was able to figure it out. Nice very short and easy solution here! The only thing that might not had been necessary was assigning a glider to get on top of the stoner, but rather I simply just needed to assign it on a lemming that's always right on top of the stoner during the ohno animation.

In the case of R3, the only thing I did differently was

Armani's Marina Bay Sands R3 V2

adjust the first builder which was still able to close the gap AND still be able to bash all the way across. Also, I mined to the left first before cloning so that I only had to deal with one swimmer instead of two like last time. As a result, I have a climber AND a blocker left over this time

For Dullstar's Alice R1 V3, definitely a huge improvement over the first two versions, but I still think this is a backroute. For one thing, I use two jumpers, so it doesn't quite fit the criteria of the rule. Second, some skills left over.

I haven't looked at eric's V2 of his R1 level, as well as the three R1 levels that I wasn't able to solve yet. I will soon! Keep up the great work, everyone! These are all wonderful.

[kaywhyn]

@WillLem, how's this for your R1 V4? Unless the leftover skill is completely optional, I would say your 3rd version with the time limit was very justified in order to enforce its use, meaning you definitely should had kept the time limit if so. Otherwise, very nice short and easy level

[ericderkovits]

yes here is my replay for version 4 very easy level even with the time limit(was 19 sec). Yes I had a walker left over too. To start in my replay I increased the RR to 99.

[mantha16]

ive watched Kaywhyn's and Armani's replays to Lemception and neither of you have done the intended solution but I consider them fair alternatives rather than backroutes so I may or may not attempt to enforce the intended solution but I'm leaning towards not at the moment.

[Armani]

Armani's NeoLemtris R1 V3

No changes to my solution here except for a stacker to hold back the crowd. Otherwise, the exact same solution, BUT I was able to save way more skills this time around due to not using any jumpers except for 1.

It seems I need to strongly enforce the upper route. Added a fire.

Armani's Hornet Flight R2 V2

This should be intended now! It surprisingly gave me a lot of problems after the change, but luckily I was able to figure it out. Nice very short and easy solution here! The only thing that might not had been necessary was assigning a glider to get on top of the stoner, but rather I simply just needed to assign it on a lemming that's always right on top of the stoner during the ohno animation.

Intended This level is to showcase the trick you found.(So I can justify my harder and obscure levels using that trick. )

In the case of R3, the only thing I did differently was

Armani's Marina Bay Sands R3 V2

adjust the first builder which was still able to close the gap AND still be able to bash all the way across. Also, I mined to the left first before cloning so that I only had to deal with one swimmer instead of two like last time. As a result, I have a climber AND a blocker left over this time

Ooops, I missed the obvious backroute again. Added OWW will hopefully fix that