Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[WillLem]

And I got my videos up!

Thanks for uploading, these are a great watch as usual.

The solution to The Diving Area is not intended; the timer is there to help enforce the intended solution, but I might try and find a way to do it without the timer seeing as it doesn't actually prevent somewhat messy alternatives.

[Dullstar]

While Icho's v4 backroute is certainly conceptually trickier, I must say the v5 backroute seems a lot more complicated than the v4 one to me considering the timing involved. It's also frustratingly close to what I had intended, and I can't possibly imagine this was easier to execute than what I'd intended.

I am unable to fix this level. If it is fixable, it will need the attention of someone who's better at this. It seems that every time I think I've fixed it, everyone just slightly modifies their backroutes in ways I didn't think possible and it's back to square one and still completely and utterly broken.

Here are the replay proofs for v4 and v5, alongside the level files since old versions are removed from the updates thread.

[ericderkovits]

hey, Dullstar try doing this to help with the intended solution.

Spoiler

Put 1 of the miner skills as a pickup right above left trap, and subtract 1 miner skill. This will make it so a lemming has to fall there and stone and a 2nd one to land on stoner and turn him around and immediatly block there on top of stoner.
I did this to your level and your version 5 replay you uploaded works. You want to make sure a lemming can't mine in block until he gets that miner pickup skill. Also it uses all the skills.

[kaywhyn]

Sorry to disappoint you, WillLem, but the jumpers are absolutely not needed in your new level IF you position the bombers correctly. See my attached replay. Easy fix, though: Increase the RR. Even more, just set it to 99. Otherwise, nice level and way too easy, much easier than your old level, in fact.

[ericderkovits]

yes Willem, I also did it without the jumpers. Here is my replay though with the RR set to 99. And yes this level is super easy. I actually still liked your old one better. But of course this is your level, so it's your choice which one you want to be in the contest.

[IchoTolot]

From discord:

@WillLem You can indeed swap your entry, but then I need it in the correct naming format.    I would put your old level in a bonus rank then. Seems like you got fixing to do anyway

[kaywhyn]

This should be intended now. If so, nice job and nice level. The suggested fix a few posts above for v5 would be fine, except that it enforces the stoner above the spike traps but doesn't enforce a blocker on top of the stoner. Instead, you can still block at the end inside the miner tunnel if you send another climber at the right time. In addition, it's like you said, the solution will probably be a bit more obvious as well. No offense to him, but he be the last person anyone would ask for help to fix levels, for the time being.

My suggested fix which might had worked for your V5 would had been something different, and that is to place a second right-facing entrance to the left and above the left spike traps so that you're forced to stone and block. The only thing I'm not sure about is if the miner would be able to hit the blocker to turn around.

edit: Just tried it out, and yes, he be able to. I would had provided my suggestion of a fix much earlier, but I was waiting to see if further suggestions for fixes came up, particularly since I have yet to get into level designing myself. Oh well, too late for that now.

Spoiler

It requires that you block while the lemming is facing left so that the crowd can be contained. Otherwise, they will pass through the blocker. Also, it requires that you place the entrance in such a way that the stoner is a pixel away from the wall.

[Dullstar]

@kaywhyn: you're not quite to the intended solution but this is pretty close. This is partially due to an error I made - when I was adjusting the skillset for the new solution, I had a few leftover skills, and I thought I removed them, but it would appear that I did not. In any case, it's certainly not an egregious backroute. Since I had meant to remove the blocker, I'm going to release a patch, but if you successfully modify this solution to work in v7, which will be released sometime today or tomorrow, I will consider this to be an acceptable variant (the only changes will be the removal of one blocker and one walker from the skillset, if you want to start working on a solution before then).

To be fair to eric, many of his levels are certainly on the easier side, but there's not necessarily anything wrong with that, though his suggested fix didn't really fit the vision I had for the level. The pack I've slowly been working on needs more easy levels and more hard levels, but at the end of the day I'm more comfortable pumping out the easy levels if I need more to balance out the difficulty, so I don't want to lose a potential late rank level to difficulty-reducing backroute fixes. I might look into your fix a bit for the future, though - I probably won't apply it to this level, but I might make a new level with it.

[ericderkovits]

well my v5 of the level is certainly easier since I changed it by adding a disarmer which gave away the intended solution, thus making it easy. but the version before that many people thought is wasn't easy, including armani(although he really backrouted it). Also watch Icho's contest youtube on my level. From what I saw he struggled with it.

[Dullstar]

To clarify, most of Eric's levels that I've played so far are easy. There's nothing wrong with that, and that fact doesn't negate any harder levels that he's made. I don't want him to feel like he shouldn't offer suggestions when someone asks for help fixing a backroute, which I feel kaywhyn's post may have implied. Even though I chose not to go with his suggestion, it was something to at least consider. In this specific case I think it would have made the level too easy, so I chose a different solution, but that does not mean that eric's input was not appreciated.

[kaywhyn]

My post wasn't meant to imply that eric's fix wasn't appreciated at all. I thought it was a pretty good one, it just wouldn't enforce your intended solution 100%, since there's nothing to stop you from blocking inside the miner tunnel instead of on top of the stoner instead. And yes, I agree about how some fixes can end up making the solution much more obvious, and so I can understand why going with another fix is more desirable. It was for other unwanted actions around this place, but I've gotten over it and forgiven him, since he already apologized for his actions. Instead, I think as long as he takes responsibility for his actions and be aware of them that I think people will be more likely to ask him for help fixing levels in the future if need be. He definitely has potential. One good example is that I still haven't solved his v6 of his R1 despite spending about an hour on it earlier tonight while others have already solved it. I'm one skill short, but I'm really close. Nevertheless, I will praise him that his level is so much better with the fixes he put in and is definitely nowhere near as annoying anymore. 

There's definitely nothing wrong with making easier levels. This community can certainly use more of them, since I think that's where we're lacking tremendously. I consider them a really nice break from all the brutal hard levels I've been playing for the past several months.   

[IchoTolot]

Ok my new solution to Dullstar's level is very close to my old solution again.

[ericderkovits]

@Dullstar If your referring to my Angry Lemmings being easy. Its because there in the Fun and Tricky ranks. There meant to be easy as the original lemmings ranks were easy too. I haven't uploaded the Taxing or Mayhem yet. But 1 level originally in the Fun rank I changed to an easier one since Namida couldn't solve it and put it in another rank although I thought it was easy that's why it was in the Fun rank but I guess it didn't belong in the Fun rank so I replaced it with another level which definitely is easy.

Note also I changed my level "This room is boiling for my Angry Lemmings pack made it a little harder since the one in the contest was made easier since it gave the solution away.

also I 100% agree with you Dullstar for not choosing it because it DOES give more of the intended solution away. I've noticed that when using pickup skills they tend to give solutions away but most of the time they are needed to fix backroutes. This is the reason I use them alot. Also I think using buttons help with fixing backroutes.

@Kaywhyn I'm not ever going to post anything about replays in Authors' packs again. I will just keep quiet about them from now on. So I'm sorry about that. That is the reason I removed my posts about the replays I have and need. I have no intention on bringing them back either.

[Dullstar]

Ok my new solution to Dullstar's level is very close to my old solution again.

After v5, I didn't really have any ideas left regarding how to force my intended solution without walking the player through it step by step, so a new solution was put into place in v6.

In regards to Icho's replay (this won't be a spoiler for Icho, but it might be for someone else)

Icho's v4 replay was used as the model for the v6 solution. The v4 and v6 replays in question will not work in v7, but I expect you will find it trivial to make this work in v7.

The purpose of the steel added in v6 was actually to try to force the player to discover that a basher tunnel could be used in the way this solution uses it, by forcing the tunnel be started with at least 1 pixel of terrain above it, although since it's maybe a bit hard to think to try if you've never seen it before, I've chosen to be lenient on solutions that manage to bypass it if everything else is correct

[kaywhyn]

@Dullstar Yes, your v7 did break my replay, but it's a very easy fix. Exact same solution as v6, just need to interrupt the left-facing miner with a walker instead. Replay attached, although I know that you said that you have accepted this solution of mine. Again, let me make it clear that very easy levels like yours are a very welcome sight. Not a problem at all. I don't mind playing difficult ones, but I'm definitely burnt out by them to some extent having played nothing but mind-boggling and hair pulling brutal, hard ones for the last several months. It has also been really nice playing levels by other authors instead of from the same 3 people that I have played during that same time period.

Overall, nice job with this level