[SUG] NeoLemmix Leaderboard

[WillLem]

In the absence of a 2-Player mode in NeoLemmix, and following kaywhyn's recent query regarding his status as a solver within the community, I thought it might be a good idea to compile a leaderboard for NeoLemmix only.

It would be easy enough to compile it in terms of levels played, levels solved, number of lemmings saved, number of skills used, that sort of thing*, but pack difficulty would be potentially problematic, since a pack's difficulty depends a lot on the person playing it.

This bring me back to my suggestion that the community has a standardised difficulty rating for packs. If there were also a way to upload packs to NL (in the same way that styles are uploaded, for instance), they could be organised in terms of difficulty for players to download, and perhaps levels in more difficult packs could be weighted such that players who complete them get moved further up the leaderboard.

For example, let's say Player A completes 3 levels from Easy McLemmings, rated "Easy", and Player B completes 1 level from Unnecessarily Difficult Lemmings, rated "Extreme".

The scale could be organised thus:

Easy - each level in this pack is worth 1 point
Medium - 2 points
Hard - 3 points
Extreme - 4 points

This would mean that Player B would appear higher in the leaderboard than Player A, for having completed a more difficult level. Even though Player A has solved more levels, the points totals reflect the difficulty of the levels solved.

It could even be that bonus points are awarded according to which rank the level is in, so an "Easy, Rank 4" level would award 1 + 4 points, and a "Medium, Rank 3" level would award 2 + 3 points. That way, If someone only completes the 1st rank of an "Extreme" pack, they wouldn't be awarded anywhere near as many points as someone who completed just the 4th rank of that same pack (assuming all ranks have an equal number of levels).

Just a thought, really. I'm sure the idea could be developed into something compelling.

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*N.B. This info would always reflect a player's best performance on any given level. So, if a player completes Just Dig! using 2 Diggers but only saving 1 Lemming, and then completes it using 8 Diggers but saving 10 Lemmings, their leaderboard result for Just Dig! would be 10 Lemmings saved, 2 Diggers used. As I imagine it, the Lemmings Saved field for that player would read 10, and Skills Used would read 2. Any further attempts at the same level would overwrite the data already gathered from that level, so if a player plays Just Dig! 1,000 times always saving 10 Lemmings, the Lemmings Saved field would still read 10. It would only be increased by playing a different level.

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N.B. Just to be clear, I'm suggesting that this be an automatically generated Leaderboard populated by gathering level data from players whose copies of NeoLemmix are connected to the internet, rather than a manual one on the forums. Of course, players would be prompted to agree (or not) to their level data being used for this purpose.

[ericderkovits]

I know I would probably be in Last place for this as I can't solve any difficult levels. I know Icho and Namida would lead the way as well as Kaywhyn since there in my eyes the top puzzle solvers. And although I did do the
Superlemmini conversion packs levels and had to solve them to make sure the packs levels worked, I really didn't solve any but say a few in the first rank(such as Just Dig reloaded). I needed help from Icho's Youtube
channel solutions and his PMd lemmini replays for my Conversion of Lemmings Reunion to Superlemmini. Also had to use Icho's youtube solutions for my Pimolems, and Mobilems conversion.

[WillLem]

I thought it might be best to give an example of how the Leaderboard could look:

Player |	Score |	Levels Completed |	Lemmings Saved |	Skills Used
Player A |	8	1	30	10
Player B |	7	2	40	12
Player C |	6	3	40	15
Player D |	6	2	30	15

In the above example, Player A has completed 1 level from Rank 4 of an "Extreme" pack, and is therefore at the top of the leaderboard having earned 8 points (4 points for an "Extreme" level, and another 4 because the level is in Rank 4).

Player B has played 2 levels, an Easy/Rank 3 level earning them 4 points, and a Medium/Rank 1 level earning them 3 points, for a total of 7.

Player C has played 3 levels, all Easy/Rank 1, for a total of 6 points. Player D has also earned 6 points by playing 2 Medium/Rank 1 levels. In this case, Player C is higher for having played more levels and saved more lemmings, but if Player D were to play just 1 more level from Medium/Rank 1, they would be on 9 points and therefore at the top of the Leaderboard.

The board therefore rewards players who play a lot, as well as those who play very difficult levels. It also rewards those who go back and try to save those extra few lems, or minimise their skill usage, but to a lesser extent. So, the table could look like this:

Player |	Score |	Levels Completed |	Lemmings Saved |	Skills Used
Player L |	97	18	300	180
Player M |	97	18	280	200
Player N |	97	18	280	210
Player O |	97	18	240	180

As you can see, the table favours Lemmings Saved, then Skills Used, in cases where players have an identical Score/Levels Completed. The only issue I can see with this is that there could be a level within a pack that requires 1,000 skills to save 1 lemming. Such a level would obviously cause a large anomaly in that part of the table.

That said, the table still places the most weight on a player's overall score, which is ultimately improved by simply completing large numbers of levels. Also, playing harder levels earns more points, so you don't need to complete as many to increase your score.

If anything, a Leaderboard organised this way would encourage people to play more packs, and complete them!

[Proxima]

Let's try to keep this realistic. Suppose we end up with data on 10 players and 20 packs; compiling the data for how many levels each player has completed in each pack is manageable, but compiling data on every player's performance in every individual level is completely off the wall. Even if you want to present the data in the form of totals, you still have to calculate that total by getting the data for the individual levels. Not only would it be a nightmare to compile the leaderboards in the first place, they wouldn't be maintained and so they would very quickly become meaningless.

So, let's say we have data in the form "Smith has completed 25 levels of LPI/Mild and 10 levels of LPI/Wimpy". We could just rank players on their total number of levels solved, but as you say, it's tempting to make harder levels worth more. We could say rank 1 levels are worth 1 each and rank 2 levels are worth 2 each, but then, packs have different numbers of ranks, and some entire packs are much harder than others.

The ideal solution would be for each rank (not each pack) to have a difficulty rating, so a "difficulty 3" rank in one pack would be considered roughly equivalent to a "difficulty 3" rank in another pack. It would take some time to agree on the ratings, but the number of packs available is small enough that it's not impossible.

[WillLem]

compiling the data for how many levels each player has completed in each pack is manageable, but compiling data on every player's performance in every individual level is completely off the wall

I see what you mean, and this would certainly be a massive problem if the Leaderboard was done manually on the forums, but I was actually thinking that since NeoLemmix can gather level data for each player (and there are plans to introduce level data in the F2 menu), as long as a player opts to have their copy of NeoLemmix connected to the internet, their data could automatically populate a Leaderboard within NeoLemmix itself. I've updated the OP to reflect this.

The ideal solution would be for each rank (not each pack) to have a difficulty rating, so a "difficulty 3" rank in one pack would be considered roughly equivalent to a "difficulty 3" rank in another pack. It would take some time to agree on the ratings, but the number of packs available is small enough that it's not impossible.

This is a much better idea, I completely agree. It comes back to there being a universal standard of difficulty, which I believe is not impossible to achieve at all. I've addressed this here to keep it topic-relevant.

[kaywhyn]

In the absence of a 2-Player mode in NeoLemmix, and following kaywhyn's recent query regarding his status as a solver within the community, I thought it might be a good idea to compile a leaderboard for NeoLemmix only.

Truthfully, when I made that topic of mine, all I was inquiring about was how the community viewed me as a level solver. I certainly wasn't trying to suggest a leaderboard of any kind to arise from it. However, from your description of it in this thread, it does sound interesting. Even though I've only been posting here for 6 months, the consensus here seems to be that I'm considered one of the few that is much better at solving than most, which I think is amazing, but I suspect that this is only because I have recently completed all of United (I made the topic shortly after beating the pack), a pack I feel that some members here would certainly like to take on and complete but ultimately will likely abandon after a certain point because eventually the very high difficulty will get to be too much for him or her and they lose the will and determination to go on as a result.

I got to admit, shortly before reaching the very end, I came pretty close to giving up many times about halfway through the Genocide rank (rank 5 and the final main rank of the pack before the Bonus rank), but ultimately what kept me going all the way through the very end was how I had made it too far in the pack to just stop and give up, and my strong will and determination (I kept telling myself, "I can do this"), and, ultimately, just encouragement and motivation from the pack author Icho himself and certain members of this community. Hence, I didn't let the roadblocks stop me from accomplishing this achievement.

That said, the table still places the most weight on a player's overall score, which is ultimately improved by simply completing large numbers of levels. Also, playing harder levels earns more points, so you don't need to complete as many to increase your score.

This sounds more like a stats/scoreboard for each player rather than a leader board, although I think for comparison purposes it's still interesting.

If anything, a Leaderboard organised this way would encourage people to play more packs, and complete them!

I'm not entirely certain that it would, considering that the biggest factor for everyone is time, and certainly some people's time for playing is far more limited than others. In the same way, I don't think it will necessarily encourage more playing of difficult packs either. Even though players are certainly more than welcome to take them on because they're available, some players avoid them because these packs outright intimidate them, or they're simply content taking on only packs a bit on the easier side. It might encourage both playing more packs and more difficult ones to an extent, though, so this scoreboard certainly might still have its uses.

[Minim]

compiling the data for how many levels each player has completed in each pack is manageable, but compiling data on every player's performance in every individual level is completely off the wall

I see what you mean, and this would certainly be a massive problem if the Leaderboard was done manually on the forums, but I was actually thinking that since NeoLemmix can gather level data for each player (and there are plans to introduce level data in the F2 menu), as long as a player opts to have their copy of NeoLemmix connected to the internet, their data could automatically populate a Leaderboard within NeoLemmix itself. I've updated the OP to reflect this.

Level data gatherings could work, but at the moment there's nothing to stop people abusing top spot on the leaderboard because they can simply edit the .nxsv file by modifying the status, time taken/lemmings saved etc. Replays are the genuine foolproof way of not cheating in NeoLemmix.

I don't like the consideration of points setting for difficulty ratings. As Proxima said, it would take time to agree on ratings for every rank. No matter what the pack is, I'd stick with levels completed.

Another criterium that another Lemming-like game uses is Qdots, which are items scattered around the level that improves your score and your leaderboard position the more you collect. We could use buttons (Or Pickup Skills or even ) for this instance, but implementing this as part of NeoLemmix is probably going to be a challenge. Plus, we'd have to place them all over each level. If it works though, it could be the difference separating first from second.

[WillLem]

I don't like the consideration of points setting for difficulty ratings. As Proxima said, it would take time to agree on ratings for every rank. No matter what the pack is, I'd stick with levels completed.

I see what you mean, but the main issue with that is that completing a pack of 100 easy levels is far less of a feat than completing 25 extremely difficult levels, and the whole point of a leaderboard is usually to indicate player prowess. Surely there must be a way to add bonus points to a level based on its rank, for example, even if difficulty ratings aren't agreed upon.

Further to this, Mantha for one suggested that she wouldn't want to rate her packs. In such cases, I'd suggest that the levels could simply count for 1 point each. That way, players who complete them are still adding to their score, but there's no pressure on the author to indicate difficulty.

I find it likely that authors and players who pride themselves on being able to play/create difficult levels would want their levels to be recognised as such, and would therefore likely not have a problem assigning a difficulty rating to their ranks/packs. This is, of course, merely speculation at this point, hence the discussion. By all means let me know if I'm wrong; it wouldn't be the first time

Another criterium that another Lemming-like game uses is Qdots, which are items scattered around the level that improves your score and your leaderboard position the more you collect

This is a great idea! Collectable objects in Lemmings would make a lot of sense, as well... I can feel a new object suggestion coming on!

[Proxima]

Level data gatherings could work, but at the moment there's nothing to stop people abusing top spot on the leaderboard because they can simply edit the .nxsv file by modifying the status, time taken/lemmings saved etc. Replays are the genuine foolproof way of not cheating in NeoLemmix.

There's nothing to stop someone viewing other people's replays, learning the solution, and reproducing it. If we're going to have leaderboards, we have to accept that cheating is possible, but pointless, and just assume that people won't.

[WillLem]

Replays are the genuine foolproof way of not cheating in NeoLemmix.

There's nothing to stop someone viewing other people's replays, learning the solution, and reproducing it

That's a point - if anything, replays make cheating easier, if anyone is going to do it. I'd prefer to go ahead in spite of cheating being a possibility, rather than not go ahead because it's a possibility.

As Proxima said, we can simply assume (and indeed, hope) that people won't cheat. And if they do cheat, then be it on their own head. It'll soon catch them out when someone sends them a ridiculously difficult level to playtest!

EDIT - All of this said, the one thing I'd actually have against a leaderboard is that it might create competition amongst the community which, currently, isn't really a massive feature of the community. I'd hope that such a leaderboard wouldn't be taken too seriously were it to be implemented.