Let me start off by saying how very awesome I think you all are here! Ever since I started posting on this forum earlier this year back in March, I have received nothing but a positive and warm reception from everybody in this community, especially from those who welcomed and responded to my Introduction and Lemmings History topic. This is my very first online forum ever outside of schoolwork, and I must say that I'm glad to be part of such a wonderful community discussing a very awesome and iconic game I grew up with: Lemmings! Just want to thank everyone for all the custom level pack content available and especially the creators and maintainers of the various engines and just for keeping this symbolic game alive for current and future generations to come.

I have now been posting for about 6 months total, and I'm curious about something: How is this community viewing me in terms of my level solving abilities? As you may all been aware, I recently finished United, one of the most difficult packs there currently is, and am now just going back to resolve the (I recently solved one of them, so there was 7, but now it's just 6) updated versions of 6 backroute patched levels. The fact that 5 members total extended their congratulations out to me for beating all of United (thank you again Armani, eric, WillLem, Minim, and Icho, the pack author), must be saying a lot about my solving abilities despite the fact that the only people I have given extensive feedback to during these 6 months are Strato for his Lemmicks pack and Icho for his United pack. A few days ago, I completed Lemmings Plus Alpha, another very difficult pack, and gave namida extensive feedback for his pack. Currently, I'm playing Nepsterlems and have been giving Nepster some feedback for his pack as well. So, I might be doing this topic a bit too early, since Strato and Icho are really the only people who have extensively seen my solving abilities through all the many replays I have sent them, while other pack authors, like namida and Nessy, haven't had much of a chance to see my solving in action, although I'll certainly get to their other packs at some point, as they're on my to-play list. So really, it's only been 6 months, and already this community seems to know about my solving prowess. It's still quite common for me to get stuck on levels, but if given enough time and I really put my effort into it, I can eventually solve the roadblock levels.

Most importantly, a week ago, I felt quite honored when I was reached out to and asked if I wanted to backroute test some contest #21 levels, which I gladly accepted the offer of course. This right here probably says quite a lot as to how I'm seen regarding my level solving abilities! And don't worry, I'll definitely be giving level designing a try despite how I have said in the past that I won't be making any levels because of how I think I'm no good at it. The thing is I won't know if I'm truly bad at level designing unless I try, right? I have Icho's Bonus rank from United to thank for providing me the motivation and inspiration to give level designing a try

Along with this, for those pack authors who have received feedback from me regarding their packs, are you finding my feedback helpful? I certainly think I can be a bit more insightful with my feedback, but I'm still hoping that anyone who reads my feedback is finding it helpful. I also know that some have said that due to my level solving prowess, that pack authors will surely appreciate my feedback. I want to know if that's been true of the feedback I've given so far. Once again, might be too early, since it's only been 6 months I've been posting and Icho's United pack is the only major pack in New Formats NL that I have played extensively and spent the most time on for the past several months, as well as Icho and Strato are really the only members I've given extensive feedback to, with mine to namida and nepster not as much so far.

Can't wait to hear people's thoughts!

I couldnt even complete level 1 of United so the fact youve done the whole pack says it all.  You cant complete a pack like United without serious game.

You should def try designing some levels I thought I'd have no chance but its amazing how quickly you get into it.

Just make easy packs

I certainly think for solving hard levels, it is fantastic indeed.

I created the Level Solving Contest back in 2018 to prove everyone of their solving ability. This was a record-keeping contest where participants were given a long period of time to solve large levels (Like that last level of Lemmings United for example) but the number of routes to take depend on certain criteria. With skill numbers that you would expect to see in the Fun ratings (Or even Multiplayer), this type of contest was intended to be a breather to all the hard, technical levels. It was quite a popular contest when it first came out with ten entrants (including myself) participating, but then the popularity declined and it came to an end in 2019. Sure, it would be nice to revive the contest if there's enough interest (Oh, and if you're interested, too!). Seeing newer faces take part would certainly bring the enjoyment back in Lemmings.

What I would rate even higher than solving some difficult levels is the way you handled roadblocks to be honest. You kept going and not just threw in the towel. This is a way more powerful weapon than seing the trick of a bunch of difficult levels.

It's even ok to ask for a slight hint every now and then to maybe rule out a few of the many possible ways.

QuoteI couldnt even complete level 1 of United so the fact you've done the whole pack says it all.  You cant complete a pack like United without serious game.

Ok, that has to be a little lie.    

I know you've gone through the intro pack and level 1 of United would be a candidate suited for a final level of the "Skills" rank. I know for sure that you are better!


In terms of level design I would advice mabe to make a plan for the first few levels about which tricks or landscapes you want to include. That's how I handled my first attempts back then.

no its really true I didn't.  But this was ages ago long before intro pack and i have picked up a few more skills so maybe i could try again to at least solve one level lol.

Wow, thanks for the responses, everyone! Much appreciated.

Quote from: Minim on September 21, 2020, 01:24:17 PM
I certainly think for solving hard levels, it is fantastic indeed.

I created the Level Solving Contest back in 2018 to prove everyone of their solving ability. This was a record-keeping contest where participants were given a long period of time to solve large levels (Like that last level of Lemmings United for example) but the number of routes to take depend on certain criteria. With skill numbers that you would expect to see in the Fun ratings (Or even Multiplayer), this type of contest was intended to be a breather to all the hard, technical levels. It was quite a popular contest when it first came out with ten entrants (including myself) participating, but then the popularity declined and it came to an end in 2019. Sure, it would be nice to revive the contest if there's enough interest (Oh, and if you're interested, too!). Seeing newer faces take part would certainly bring the enjoyment back in Lemmings.

Thanks a bunch Minim! Absolutely, you can certainly count me in for the level solving contest

Quote from: IchoTolot on September 21, 2020, 01:54:39 PM
What I would rate even higher than solving some difficult levels is the way you handled roadblocks to be honest. You kept going and not just threw in the towel. This is a way more powerful weapon than seing the trick of a bunch of difficult levels.

It's even ok to ask for a slight hint every now and then to maybe rule out a few of the many possible ways.

Absolutely, perseverance is key. I definitely am one to avoid asking for hints on the levels, and I did for a time felt extremely bad doing so for United starting with the rank finisher of Neutrality, but after a point I realized that there's no shame in doing so, especially for a pack like United. I know that even Armani asked for help in the Neutrality rank. This was also the case for me, although only for the rank finisher of Neutrality, which surprisingly was the level that stumped me the longest out of all the other levels in the pack, about 4 months! Still, it's a wonder how that trick at the bottom escaped me for so long, and I certainly felt very dumb that I never figured that out much sooner, as well as how I kept taking a slightly incorrect route that I never eliminated as being wrong until you patched it out.

For the record, United is the only pack so far I have ever had to ask for hints. I got through Reunion, Lemmings Plus Alpha, and even Lemmings Stampede without them, but for Reunion to be fair that was at a time when I had just visited the forums to read the posts and haven't yet made myself known to the community. Also on Lemmini, too! At the same time, I realized that you asked for a hint for a Bonus level from RotL for Lemmini even though you also hated doing so, and you later replied that "you never would had come up with the idea needed to solve the level on your own," and I definitely know your status as being one of the best solvers there is here on the forums. To be fair, though, it's a rank where glitches are needed to solve them, and just so you know I'm indifferent about glitches, but I'm more towards the "I don't like these levels" just like you, as I feel that skills should behave predictably and produce logical results, not unpredictably and illogical results!

So again, I shouldn't feel bad that I had to ask for help for various levels of United. It also stems from how I generally prefer to do things solo, as I generally have some trouble working with others on team projects, for example. This is not to say that I won't ever do collab/tag team levels, though! I certainly don't mind them, and probably would love to do at least one at some point. All I'm getting at is that I prefer going solo as much as possible. Then and only then when I'm truly truly stuck then I start asking for help. Of course, seeing how this is a very friendly community, I definitely shouldn't feel afraid asking for help. This was definitely the case when I was first starting out here on the forums where I didn't post much in the first month, but other than that it's also due to how I was really busy playing level packs at the time.

What I appreciate very much about the hints is how you don't give the answer away, but rather made them vague enough so that they got me thinking and still allowed me to figure out the solution for myself without giving any of it away. That's exactly what I would do: When it comes to helping others solve levels, my goal is to not give the solution away, but rather guide them towards the solution with hints without giving anything majorly away and help them develop their thinking and solving skills. This is the exact same approach I use with my students when I want to help them learn the math.

For everyone who stumbles on this topic, here's some background/insight on United that I did in another topic from several hours ago that I probably should had waited to post here instead that I would like to reproduce here:

This is the start of it:

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Icho knows from my posts in his United topic that I have failed on many of his levels over and over, but did that stop me in my quest to conquer his pack? Not at all! Even the difficulty tag of [hard-extreme] that he attached to the level pack title didn't scare me away from taking on the pack Did I want to give up at times? Yes, but I still persevered and made it through all 238 levels, Bonus rank and all. Here, I have to say that it was thanks to Icho's encouragement, as well as yours eric, that allowed me to continue through to the very end, even when the going got very tough as I inched deeper and deeper into the Genocide rank, which was the rank that I initially feared when I first started the rank and thought would finally defeat me as a player and hence end my incredible run at finishing the pack.

Additionally, it was the fact that I made it all the way to the 5th and final rank of the main pack that told me, "I've come too far to possibly quit now. I must carry on and finish, even when I really wanted to give up for good." Remember the time I started losing hope because I was stumped for several days on Genocide 5 and thought I wasn't good enough and wasn't meant to beat Icho's United pack? Nope, Icho thought otherwise and provided me support and encouragement to keep going! I think way before I got to that point in the pack he was already beyond impressed with my solving abilities, especially with all the backroutes I found in the War rank, and hence was looking forward to more solutions from me.

Come to think of it, I think United is the very first pack I took on in NL. So, it looks like I was daring and decided to go straight for the most difficult pack there was without having played any other packs in NL first, not even the tutorial pack! And this is coming from someone who was a very long time Lemmini/Superlemmini user who had beaten Dovelems, Pimolems, and Reunion on Lemini before taking on United! I think what helped was how I had visited the forums daily for the past several years, as well as acquainted myself with the NL mechanics via the manual. I had registered for an account a couple of years ago, but I didn't start posting on this forum until earlier this year. IIRC, I was able to get all the way to Neutrality 7 before I truly got stumped and then that's when I took a break from United and played other packs in the meantime. Not bad, huh?

This is the end of the transcript

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Quote from: mantha16 on September 21, 2020, 02:46:08 PM
no its really true I didn't.  But this was ages ago long before intro pack and i have picked up a few more skills so maybe i could try again to at least solve one level lol.

You can definitely do it, mantha16!

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Now I would like to hear people's thoughts on the feedback I've given. Of course, mostly Icho and Strato will be able to provide me their insight, as I've given both of them extensive feedback out of everyone else so far, although if namida has read my feedback on his LPA pack he's more than welcome to let me know how it is. Not just pack authors, but anyone who has been reading my feedback is more than welcome to provide their input about my feedback I've given.

To be honest, kaywhyn, I haven't gotten into watching your replays for Lemmicks yet :oops: - IchoTolot has been rushing through Lemmings World Tour in parallel, and maintaining that has kept me busy. Since LWT is my flagship pack and Lemmicks is only for "very old formats", LWT receives higher priority.

I can already assure you though that your feedback for Lemmicks was as helpful as it was detailed - and I'm not just saying that because it was largely positive .

Well personally I see your level solving skills to be absolutely incredible! People like you that have beaten the hardest packs the forums currently has to offer is just incredible in my eyes. Something I'd only dream of doing. Maybe I could one day? Who knows? But anyway, I just could go on and on about how amazing some of the level solvers are on the forums. By the way thanks for the help on Sublems.

Quote from: Strato Incendus on September 21, 2020, 06:52:36 PM
To be honest, kaywhyn, I haven't gotten into watching your replays for Lemmicks yet :oops: - IchoTolot has been rushing through Lemmings World Tour in parallel, and maintaining that has kept me busy. Since LWT is my flagship pack and Lemmicks is only for "very old formats", LWT receives higher priority.

Not a problem, Strato. Do what you need to do. No rush at all.

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I can already assure you though that your feedback for Lemmicks was as helpful as it was detailed - and I'm not just saying that because it was largely positive .

Thanks for letting me know! Being super detailed is something you already know about me, if my introduction topic was any indication to go by

Quote from: Shmolem on September 21, 2020, 10:27:48 PM
Well personally I see your level solving skills to be absolutely incredible! People like you that have beaten the hardest packs the forums currently has to offer is just incredible in my eyes. Something I'd only dream of doing. Maybe I could one day? Who knows? But anyway, I just could go on and on about how amazing some of the level solvers are on the forums.

Thanks for the kind words, Shmolem! The fact that I even completed United is what I speculate that others have had the same thought about me regarding my solving prowess even though people have only seen me complete just 2 packs over a period of 6 months, United and LPA, both very difficult packs to boot. However, as my list of packs I'm playing topic shows, I have listed a little over 50 packs that I have played and completed over the years.

I'm far from being the best solver, though, and I'm perfectly fine with that, as I accept there's people here who I feel are slightly better than me when it comes to solving in general. However, I think it's safe to say that my solving ability is definitely up there with them, even if in some ways I feel I'm not quite elite status myself. As I have repeatedly said about myself, I'm good at solving levels, but I don't consider myself THAT good. Nevertheless, it's nice to know that others here feel I'm up there with some of the solving legends. At the same time, it's amazing the variety of solutions that can be found to a level by the various members here. What makes me most content is the huge amount of content available to play and solve, as I'm happy and willing to take on packs of any difficulty, including the most difficult ones.

I have no doubt that you'll be able to take on United one of these days. You're slowly but surely getting there. Heck, you might already be ready to. At least I'm thinking first rank you'll be able to do with not so much problems. Slow and steady wins the race, right? Of course, if you prefer to stick to the easier content, by all means go ahead, but you're still more than welcome to take on the difficult packs if you feel so inclined to.

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By the way thanks for the help on Sublems.

It was my pleasure, Shmolem! I will continue to provide help on any packs you happen to be tackling wherever and whenever I can. Both of the packs you're currently playing happen to be ones that I myself have already played and completed. Just know that my style of giving hints that don't give away the solution will continue, as my goal is to help people improve their thinking and solving ability without giving the answer away. It's also to keep with preventing from spoiling one's enjoyment of figuring out the solution for themselves

It might be interesting to have a community statistics/leaderboard of some sort. We'd just need to agree how it could be compiled, and what exactly it would feature in terms of criteria.

You're an ace solver, kaywhyn, I'd put you up there with the top solvers in the community

Quote from: WillLem on September 27, 2020, 01:45:51 AM
You're an ace solver, kaywhyn, I'd put you up there with the top solvers in the community

Thank you for your kind words, WillLem!