Wibble's thoughts on Lix Lemforum levels

[geoo]

One-Lix Showdown -- This looks like a backroute, albeit a quite smart one. I'm attaching a modified version which (hopefully) eliminates this shortcut, in case you want to look for the intended solution (I don't think it's that much harder though).

Betcha Can't Save Just One

Spoiler

In CustLemm/Lemmix, there was a follow-up level called "Betcha Can't Save Just Three" which I believe was identical except for the save requirement. I'm not sure if the solution there translates to Lix; it is definitely possible to save at least 2 in the Lix version though. Whether you can get to each of the exits is a good question too though.

[Simon]

Earmarked for next release unless namida suggests something else. This One-Lix Showdown by geoo is already covered by Proxima's solution in the proof collection.

-- Simon

[mobius]

Thanks for all these detailed comments! It's nice to see someone having fun.

IMO that solution to Duality is really yucky. (I say that about any solution using builders like that). Putting a small saw half hidden under the steel block may work to fix it? Or readjusting the steel but I think that might effect the good solutions. Readjusting the terrain might have the same problem.

On Two for His Heels;
While I'm not great at giving hints here's an attempt;

Spoiler

-part of your solutions is correct. The part with the digger in the middle column and the climber from the bottom going up there.

Spoiler

-at one point you used two skills to achieve the effect which you need to use only one skill for.

Spoiler

-similar to what geoo said; a lot of timing is involved; especially at the beginning.

Spoiler

-The beginning part is a bit similar to my other level "walk the plank"

On Betcha Can't Save Just One:

In English (at least where I'm from) saying 'can't save just one' can be identical to 'can't save only one' or 'even one'. A lot of words are interchangeable like this. The original level (going back to Custlem) was meant to look difficult to save *even* one lemming,

Spoiler

when in fact you can save more.

The sequel was titled "Betcha Can't Lose Just One". Indeed; the save requirement is 3 and it's identical.

To my knowledge getting to the left most exit isn't possible (that is; I haven't seen any solutions to it) But I think I've seen solutions that get at least one lemming to every other exit.
I can't remember if any of the solutions get all the 3 lemmings to the same exit. I know there are some that get lemmings to separate exists.

[Wibble]

I agree that the solution to Duality is, shall we say, inelegant? And I've got a few more inelegant (imo) solutions below too!

Thanks for the hints for "FHH, will look back at that to see if I can finally solve it.

Dances With Lixes - Spotted what to do with this level fairly quickly, the bridging doesn't even need to be that precise as my solution shows. Bit of a breather!

Five For Fighting - One of those "easy if you know how" with few skills levels - my track record on these isn't great but I spotted this one quickly enough.

This is a Stickup - An inelegant solution, I like the level in principle (must admit it felt in style like an Insane Steve level but isn't).

Spoiler

I don't like the use of a digger to stall 1 lix in order to ensure I save enough

The Gr8 Escape - Stuck on this one. My best attempt has I think 35 saved, can't see how to do all.

Spoiler

I also have saved 34 with 2 spare bridges. I think one of the bashers has to be to undermine all of the top lix, but can only get to the right height for this if I use 2 bashes at the bottom, leaving me a bash short if I build a bridge to stall. But if I bridge high enough to require 1 bash to get through, I can't then turn the lix round to get to the point needed to undermine...Weird as this level feels like it should be easier with so few skills - my record on these types of level is not so good.

Trapeze of Weird Blue Blocks - Took ages and this solution is not very elegant making me think it may not be intended

Spoiler

especially the jump/floater used to turn a lix round early and the repeated jumping to ensure the climber was last in the queue at the end.

Toccata - Now there's some familiar graphics - 2 favourite childhood games merged into 1! The only things that made me take a while on this was

Spoiler

using a digger at the start instead of a miner to begin with.

That's now as many levels as I have solved, so Two for His Heels, Changing of the Guard, and Gr8 Escape are the 3 I am stuck on for now. I will see if I can solve the first using the given hints. Back at work soon so won't have as much time, that plus the levels getting harder will make this slower progress.

[Wibble]

Finally! Good puzzle overall, I should have seen that solution more quickly.

Spoiler

Once I got myself into the mindset that I had to use a miner only for the second block, and that it also took care of the thin line I got closer. But the real kicker was seeing that it was high enough to chop up a bit of the above scenery, allowing a basher to ensure all lix were facing the correct way!

[Simon]

Back at work soon so won't have as much time, that plus the levels getting harder will make this slower progress.

It's all good. You've been plowing through lemforum at amazing pace, and are giving quality feedback. Many thanks already!

Proxima prefers easier levels at start of rank n than at finish of rank n − 1, and Proxima prefers varying looks/tilesets among consecutive levels. Thus, there is taste to the sorting of lemforum, it's not purely a strict ordering.

Interesting that Changing of the Guards is so hard and a candidate for upranking. I believe I've never solved it either.

-- Simon

[geoo]

Earmarked for next release unless namida suggests something else. This One-Lix Showdown by geoo is already covered by Proxima's solution in the proof collection.

I would consider waiting for Wibble to give the update a try, and/or Proxima's approval, as this was just a quick-fix which I didn't test thoroughly (same for the other two fixes I posted in this thread). I think Duality also warrants a fix.

This is a Stickup -- I think there are a very different solutions, but I haven't found any that I'd consider elegant.

Trapeze of Weird Blue Blocks

Spoiler

An earlier version of this level had a ceiling, and the intended solution was in fact to go via the ceiling (akin to Stepping Stones). I didn't see that though, and instead found a solution that went via the middle, which was meant to be impossible. Steve liked it and removed the ceiling. So basically anything goes for this level, but like with Stickup I feel like all solutions I've found are a bit technical.

Changing of the Guards -- This is another one which seems impossible at first but once you know you wonder why you didn't think of that. I made a follow-up "All aboard the Pain Train" which I placed later in Vicious, but I'm curious how you feel about the placement as I don't think I got any feedback on whether it belongs in late Vicious (iirc it gave Proxima troubles).

The Gr8 Escape -- Funnily enough, I remember this being one of the earlier solves for me of tseug's 10-level Lemmix pack. Goes to show how insanely hard his levels are...

[Wibble]

Update on Changing of the Guard - I am now at 4 out of 10 as opposed to 1 from before.

Spoiler

A very slight move of the digger had a big effect

. No idea how to get that 5th one though. I did notice there is a thread on this level and read it but do want to complete it the proper way. I honestly would not of thought of that backroutish method mentioned though!

I'm no further at all on Gr8 Escape. Even when I complete it I will still have a bit of a thing about that use of the number in the title.

Thomas the Climber - Slight breather compared to most. 

Spoiler

Which of the climbers is Thomas? The one who bravely tunnels and implodes to let the rest escape? I like to think so. Tbh the title made me think I only had 1 climber and I spent most of my planning assuming this, as soon as I saw I had 2 I spotted the solution! I liked the idea of 2 simultaneous climbers than a bash from far away to ensure the other turned round

Buridan's Lix - Not a clue for either exit. Best attempt is there, saving a mere 6. I can also see how to complete it if I had 1 more bridge, albeit saving all on the rhs for that. 

Spoiler

Otherwise for the rhs I can't see how to delay the lix to get the double bridge built, and also not spend too many diggers and bridges doing so. And for the lhs getting the digger through and turned round is likewise a problem

I'm back to struggling big time on levels where there are only a few skills to allocate so theoretically the options to completion are fewer. Clever level in that it presents options a la Can't Even Save One so I'm sure I won't feel it is fully done until I can save through either sanctuary.

The Circular Ruins - A relatively quick one to solve, but a lot of rewinding and frame by frame needed for me. A bit like Now This is Fun in that I wonder if the puzzle elements could have been incorporated into a smaller level. That said, the sense of scale makes it feel a bit bigger when you do complete it. 

Spoiler

Some precise digging and bridging required, I think if any of the mines, digs, or bridges are a pixel out then it doesn't work?

Merde, Merde, Merde! - I liked this level even though it took a good number of attempts. Whilst the allocation of the first skills is obvious, you then have a lot of different options, some of which looked to me good at first

Spoiler

eg saving the 3rd trapdoor from the left first as its the quickest to do

but don't work. The minimalist art style plus impossible look of the level appealed as I have mentioned for other levels earlier. However, I shudder to think what this would have been like on the old Archimedes version of Lemmings where you couldn't allocate actions when paused!

Alien Invasion - Another one I liked, it looked impossible at first

Spoiler

because I was trying to think about hoe to build the bridge right to left from the sanctuary platform

but was good because it was a short level so each attempt didn't take long.

A Matter of Perspective - I'm 1 lix away, and can get to being 1 lix away using many slight variations on my method

Spoiler

eg switching the bridge and platform, moving the position of the first mine slightly.

My choices are platform on right then bridge on left - resulting in some lix arriving and turning around before the miners are done.

Or bridge on right platform on left, - has to be a walker building the bridge otherwise I can't turn anyone, then the few extra parachutes needed on the right balance out the speed increase on the left

. Only a few seconds out but I can't see how to optimise those.

Any level not completed but mentioned by name here is a level I have been struggling with for some time now, hints of even the vaguest nature would be appreciated. In terms of difficulty level I'd say the rankings are pretty accurate so far (that said, there are a couple towards the end of vicious that I solved very quickly, namely Triangle Inequality which feels more like Quirky rating, and 3.1.1.1).

[Forestidia86]

In terms of difficulty level I'd say the rankings are pretty accurate so far (that said, there are a couple towards the end of vicious that I solved very quickly, namely Triangle Inequality which feels more like Quirky rating, and 3.1.1.1).

I agree that 3.1.1.1 felt easier than Vicious rank.

A Matter of Perspective - I'm 1 lix away, and can get to being 1 lix away using many slight variations on my method

Spoiler

eg switching the bridge and platform, moving the position of the first mine slightly.

My choices are platform on right then bridge on left - resulting in some lix arriving and turning around before the miners are done.

Or bridge on right platform on left, - has to be a walker building the bridge otherwise I can't turn anyone, then the few extra parachutes needed on the right balance out the speed increase on the left

. Only a few seconds out but I can't see how to optimise those.

Yeah needed long to get it solved as well, happened rather by accident.

Hint 1

The solution seems trivial when one sees it.

Hint 2

Think about which lix to assign the runner.

Hint 3

Think about when to assign the runner.

Hint 4

When you build the bridge, does it have different outcomes where you start?

Update on Changing of the Guard - I am now at 4 out of 10 as opposed to 1 from before.

Spoiler

A very slight move of the digger had a big effect

. No idea how to get that 5th one though.

Hint 1

Think about how to use the skills you don't mention, imploder and climber.

Hint 2

Rethink your assumptions.

Hint 3

The level is not what it seems.

Hint 4

Maybe a method you used in another level can help you.

I can give more hints if you need more, good success.

[Wibble]

Thanks as always for the hints. Just realised I didn't attach my unsuccessful method for Changing of the Guard - all skills are used in there apart from the climber (if I assign one it won't save them anyway for that method).

Spoiler

Having read the hints I don't think it makes a difference though, looks like I need a whole new approach.

A Matter of Perspective is now done.

Spoiler

I did have one where a walker built the bridge a little earlier and the timing didn't work out so well as it made me then assign a runner earlier, forcing them to mine, the bridge has to be pretty precise to get the 2 turning round together like that. I was fairly sure that was where I was going to gain the time but didn't consider trying a bridge in between my 2.

[Forestidia86]

Thanks as always for the hints. Just realised I didn't attach my unsuccessful method for Changing of the Guard - all skills are used in there apart from the climber (if I assign one it won't save them anyway for that method).

Spoiler

Having read the hints I don't think it makes a difference though, looks like I need a whole new approach.

If you still can't find an approach after some thinking further hints:

Hint 5

You are right, you need another approach.

Hint 6

The terrain is deceptive.

Hint 7

Is there another spot you can dig that makes sense?

Hint 8

Do you remember the level "As Good As Dead"?

[Wibble]

Couple more unsuccessful replays of Changing attached.

Spoiler

The second one has the digger as far to the left as possible, 1 pixel further left and the steel stops them.

I have also tried digging on the right hand side to implode at that wall, with no more success, saved 3 iirc

[Forestidia86]

Hint 9

Your basic idea of the replays with the lefthand digger is correct.

Hint 10

Try different digger timings to make it work.

[Wibble]

Still on COTG -

Spoiler

I attached an attempt before where the digger was as far left as possible. If you undo that dig and click the rewind once, then dig, you hit steel so it doesn't work.

I have tried clicking onwards 1 step then having them dig, none of those attempts work either. I need a lix to be facing left when they fall, using lix from the right trapdoor doesn't work as they don't get there quickly enough. I have also noticed that once you get to the point where the hole is at full width, the relative position of the lix from the left trapdoor at the end of digging will be the same anyway - they walk the same distance as the dig takes the same length of time.

I had read the thread on the backroute for this level, which it feels like the hints here are guiding me towards. But that says you are using the exact frame - surely such a solution cannot be the intended one?

I think it's the first level where I may need to admit defeat, at least for now.

[Forestidia86]

Concerning "backroute"

The "backroute" only makes itself harder than needed to be but it is a tight level.

Hint 11

Just try out different lix with the digger.

Since Simon and Wibble had/have such problems with the level it would be maybe a candidate for higher ranking.