conversion of Icholotots lemmini Lemmings reunion into Superlemmini

[ericderkovits]

this message has happened to me before Not sure why?

[ericderkovits]

I redownloaded your new attached ones and reloaded original levels but for some reason only the drunk  lemmings on the way home works. you didn't even use the 3 builders. you used a miner and a bomber and basher at beginning.
you had 1 builder left over at end of level

in neolemmix's version icho put right faceing arrows up to 1st building so I wanted to see if your replay still worked using that one in Superlemmini. yes it still works.

the disturbance in the matrix starts off doing a few things but then nukes.

Also I used the original 2 levels since I think by using the altered ones that is why they say level doesn't exist in replay

[ericderkovits]

Also the replay I used in Superlemmini for Drunk Lemmings on the way home is the same replay in neolemmix's version which uses 3 builder one. in Superlemmini this solution wouldn't work. I think the one with 3 builders is the intended solution one because it's not only in neolemmix's version of reunion. but also if you watch icho's on youtube he mentions the 3 builder solution at beginning. that's why I altered it.

also if you watch icho's pmd one in lemmini I gave you it also shows the 3 level builder one. so in Superlemmin, Tsyu needs to fix this too as this solution doesn't work in Superlemmini

[kaywhyn]

I redownloaded your new attached ones and reloaded original levels but for some reason only the drunk  lemmings on the way home works. you didn't even use the 3 builders. you used a miner and a bomber and basher at beginning.
you had 1 builder left over at end of level

in neolemmix's version icho put right faceing arrows up to 1st building so I wanted to see if your replay still worked using that one in Superlemmini. yes it still works.

the disturbance in the matrix starts off doing a few things but then nukes.

Also I used the original 2 levels since I think by using the altered ones that is why they say level doesn't exist in replay

For the Disturbance in the Matrix, there's nuking because I nuked the level. For some reason, the steel doesn't work on that level, but if you want you could simply use my replay and finish off the level as usual. The purpose of my replay is to show you that there's no need to modify the level even though a climber is able to get through the builder wall, because if you position the builder and the miner correctly, the miner will go through the builder bricks and hit the steel, turning him around. Just make sure to release the blocker with a basher before the climber hits the blocker and turns around again.

For the Drunk Lemmings On Their Way Home, again the purpose of the replay is to show you a different way of solving the level. That's the solution I first used on Lemmini, and interesting that it still works even with the OWW on Superlemmini. Unfortunately, there's not really anything that can be done to block off my solution, and so it'll just have to be accepted as an alternative.

Ultimately, it's your call at the end of the day. Glad to hear that you finally got Field Trip to work.

[ericderkovits]

yes i think I have made the decision for Drunk Lemmings on the way home. I will put original one back and accept yours as the solution. but I forgot to add the OWW to it which I will do. why not. Superlemmini has the climber issue and basher issue in Field trip on sloped terrain anyways, so that is altered. so I might as well use your solution. also I think I like that solution too better. I think fewer people know about the 3 builder thing anyways and it is only in the beginning of hey not too rough (rank 2)

Edit: I now have the OWW's in it. this will still fix a different backroute. just not yours.
Edit2: I have officially put level back and put your replay in my replays folder for HeyNotTooRough as the solution and deleted the 3 builder one.
so when this pack gets uploaded for others. people will have to use your solution. it's better this way anyways since 3 builder one wont work.


I'm going to do your solution in neolemmix-reunion and post it in see if Icho mentions anything about that solution(he may not even deal with it since reunion I think is no longer in his radar). and yes probably nothing can be done with your solution anyways unless he does something using pickup skills so  one doesn't have the miners until after getting through first building. but even if he fixes it that way in neolemmix, I will not deal with that backroute fix in Superlemmini since pickups are not in Superlemmini.

Edit: i tryed to do yours in neolemmix but after starting miner and exploding him other lemmings still won't be blocked from going left. I think in neolemmix bombers explosions are not big enough compared to Lemmini's or Superlemmini's so nevermind about posting yours for Icho.



Ok here is my level 9 (Rank 2) Drunk Lemmings on the way Home and replay. I had to solve again using your solution because it wasn't playing the shadow music. since your replay is the same solution but you don't have the music yet, it played random level music. not sure what music my replay will do in yours, but in mine the Icho's neolemmix reunion11(shadow music)

[ericderkovits]

and for rank 1 level 30 I just added an extra builder to original level and deleted my altered one. by adding the extra builder the climber won't climb past a 4 builder one.(i think this solution is more intended for the builder wall). and if by adding an extra builder creates a backroute I'm not worried about it since it's only rank 1 and usually Icho gives more freedom in the 1st rank levels anyways)

ok i've included the original level but with an extra builder and my replay for last level (rank 1). I will just go with this one for the pack.

[ericderkovits]

also I really appreciate your help in the solving of levels as I want this Superlemmini pack to be a joy for everyone, especially when they can choose to play it with untimed bombers and music from neolemmix's version(superlemmini allows more options.). It's just too bad Superlemmini still has these issues with the  climber and the basher not bashing on mildly sloped terrain. hopefully the next release  by Tsyu will be better in this regard.


also I've changed level 21 hurtmeplenty (field trip) to extend vertical terrain so 2nd climber will turn around. I think this one is the best choice. so I removed 1 miner now to match level as it originally was.

Level ends up with 1 climber, 1 floater, 1 digger.

here is my level 21 and replay

[kaywhyn]

so in Superlemmin, Tsyu needs to fix this too as this solution doesn't work in Superlemmini

Ah yes. In the process of reporting the climber goes through one pixel ceiling bug, I totally forgot about reporting the builder wall to Tsyu as well. I'll do that in a bit. Again, I will credit you for discovering this.

edit: done!

and for rank 1 level 30 I just added an extra builder to original level and deleted my altered one. by adding the extra builder the climber won't climb past a 4 builder one.(i think this solution is more intended for the builder wall). and if by adding an extra builder creates a backroute I'm not worried about it since it's only rank 1 and usually Icho gives more freedom in the 1st rank levels anyways)

Good call! The turning around upon hitting steel is really inconsistent anyway. In Lemmini, the lemming doesn't turn around when mining/bashing into steel, but he does in Superlemmini and NL. Also, with the extra builder, one could simply build with the climber to turn him around rather than add a 4th layer to the builder wall, ie, let the climber build just before reaching the builder wall so that he hits his head and turns around. Nevertheless, this should be ok since it's close enough to the solution of adding a 4th layer to the builder wall anyway.

yes i think I have made the decision for Drunk Lemmings on the way home. I will put original one back and accept yours as the solution. but I forgot to add the OWW to it which I will do. why not. Superlemmini has the climber issue and basher issue in Field trip on sloped terrain anyways, so that is altered. so I might as well use your solution. also I think I like that solution too better. I think fewer people know about the 3 builder thing anyways and it is only in the beginning of hey not too rough (rank 2)

Edit: I now have the OWW's in it. this will still fix a different backroute. just not yours.
Edit2: I have officially put level back and put your replay in my replays folder for HeyNotTooRough as the solution and deleted the 3 builder one.
so when this pack gets uploaded for others. people will have to use your solution. it's better this way anyways since 3 builder one wont work.

Sounds good! Truth be told, it never occurred to me to even use the builder wall when I first solved the level on Lemmini years ago, and the miner/bomber was the very first solution I found. However, there is also an inconsistency here, and that is my Superlemmini solution appears to not work in Lemmini. It appears that the bomber hole in a miner tunnel is just like NL's in that lemmings will still walk out to the left. So, this would mean that Superlemmini's physics is very inconsistent compared to the other two engines. Therefore, the only way the solution will work in Lemmini is by mining to the left and then bombing, but when the OWW is added then my solution won't work. Also, in Lemmini's case, my solution is much harder to pull off due to timing the bomber at the right time and the positioning of the miner. At the same time, IIRC Superlemmini physics is based off of Amiga's, and I'm not sure if these inconsistencies also show up in Amiga. However, it's important to note that it's based off of Amiga, which doesn't mean that it's supposed to emulate Amiga in every single aspect and so it's ok for it to be slightly different.

also I really appreciate your help in the solving of levels as I want this Superlemmini pack to be a joy for everyone, especially when they can choose to play it with untimed bombers and music from neolemmix's version(superlemmini allows more options.). It's just too bad Superlemmini still has these issues with the  climber and the basher not bashing on mildly sloped terrain. hopefully the next release  by Tsyu will be better in this regard.


also I've changed level 21 hurtmeplenty (field trip) to extend vertical terrain so 2nd climber will turn around. I think this one is the best choice. so I removed 1 miner now to match level as it originally was.

My pleasure. I enjoy Superlemmini just as much as you do, and it's still my preferred engine of choice out of the others, so I really appreciate all the packs you have converted to Superlemmini. Granted, I haven't played through any of the converted packs yet, but I certainly will once I'm done with some NL packs. Really, the solutions I sent you were merely meant to demonstrate that it won't be necessary to make other adjustments and thus saving you some unnecessary work, as well as provide you with a different solution to the level that I myself found. That's why it's so much fun to compare solutions with others imo. In any case, I'm glad that they have been helpful in helping you make informed decisions on some of the levels. Ultimately, it's your call at the end of the day as to what you do with the levels, since it is, after all, your project, and I have to respect your decisions. In a way, you can say I'm like a "pre-tester."

I certainly didn't mean to drag out the conversation like this and slow your progress, so forgive me there. I just occasionally see comments on some of the levels you're working on and then I think, hey, I think eric would be interested in seeing an alternative solution that I found when I played the pack on Lemmini back sometime ago. Hopefully, there won't be any further levels that will differ significantly from Icho's intended NL solution. Not to mention a lot of my solutions wouldn't work anyway with the updated pack in NL.

[ericderkovits]

I have a little program that plays all the amiga versions of Lemmngs. a nice little one I found online called Lemmings anthology. it's just a single executable file. I would post it but I'm not allowed to because Namida mentioned it has a donate button. and it got removed in the past.
anyways i started it up again to test the builder wall in a random fun level (origins and lemmings) entered the password to access level and build a builder wall. I found it does take 4 builders to stop a climber so I think maybe Tsyu's answer to that question is yes it is intended since he wants Superlemmini to be close to Amiga's version. But I'm not totally sure. maybe he'll come back and say it's not intended. of course Tsyu seldom comes online much. so the answer could come after a long time. but who knows. once I posted something and Tsyu responded within 2 hours.

[kaywhyn]

Oh, that's what happened to it! I remember the program being posted here but then one day I couldn't find it anymore. Well, no worries about it. I managed to find an amiga emulator so I can fire that up anytime I wish. Thanks for confirming the climber/builder wall.

[ericderkovits]

if you google it, you can get it. just enter lemmings anthology in search bar. it will say it's by "The Company" you can download it there. it's cool. it plays all the amiga ones. orig, ohno, xmas 91,92 holiday93,94, demo version, it even plays new years lemmings (5 levels), lemmings tribes. and lemmings 3.

anyways just finished level 24 so far so good. but level 23 Is horrid. shouldn't even be a level. it's not even a puzzle. it's just trying to get the diggers placed extremely in exact positions on poles otherwise level fails. it took many tries to get that first part right, then rest of level is easy.

the level is Sternenhimmel(what a german title being that bad). anyways Sternenhimmel means in english sky of stars. Sterne means stars.
Zimtsterne(cinnimon stars) are german christmas cookies. I bought some on amazon.com. don't really care for them though.

anyways that level I think is ridiculous, not even a puzzle. Shouldnt even be in Superlemmini or even Lemmini. To Me that level just for that first part should be in last rank since it's extremely difficult just to get started.

[kaywhyn]

if you google it, you can get it. just enter lemmings anthology in search bar. it will say it's by "The Company" you can download it there. it's cool. it plays all the amiga ones. orig, ohno, xmas 91,92 holiday93,94, demo version, it even plays new years lemmings (5 levels), lemmings tribes. and lemmings 3.

Got it. Thanks!

anyways just finished level 24 so far so good. but level 23 Is horrid. shouldn't even be a level. it's not even a puzzle. it's just trying to get the diggers placed extremely in exact positions on poles otherwise level fails. it took many tries to get that first part right, then rest of level is easy.

the level is Sternenhimmel(what a german title being that bad). anyways Sternenhimmel means in english sky of stars. Sterne means stars.
Zimtsterne(cinnimon stars) are german christmas cookies. I bought some on amazon.com. don't really care for them though.

anyways that level I think is ridiculous, not even a puzzle. Shouldnt even be in Superlemmini or even Lemmini. To Me that level just for that first part should be in last rank since it's extremely difficult just to get started.

Oh gosh! When I saw the title of the level, I was like I definitely will comment, because eric's going to love my story here. When I first played that level on Lemmini, I would learn that I ended up considerably overcomplicating the solution years later. So rather than bash to free the blockers, my setup is extremely difficult to pull off in that I had the digger pits and builders all set up so that I could use one miner to free all of them. The problem of course is that since there are several poles you would have to do it all correctly, because one too high or too low and the miner won't get through all of it. Now that I have seen the solution, much easier to just bash all the blockers free. Given how my solution is very difficult to do, I'm not even sure if I want to do it ever again, but if I ever do play it again and I get it working, I'll definitely send you my replay. Too bad I never saved it, though. Perhaps if it's still possible, I'll just do it on NL since it's much easier due to skill shadows. Amazing how that's the first solution I even came up with for the level.

edit: the heck? Challenge accepted! See replay. This is for Lemmini.

[ericderkovits]

yes i see that. at least that's 2 lined up builders so miner can miner through middle pole. that part reminds me of the 2nd to last level of neolemmix's franlems sadistic level 9 (Queztalings) that i did from dodochacalo. that one I think is the hardest one in the pack to line up the builders steps so miner can mine through 2 stairs going through middle pole. and that is for neolemmix too. It took me 3 days to get the solution to work exactly

[kaywhyn]

I can definitely tell that you get a kick out of seeing my solution replays. Another thing they do is they show you other ways of solving the same level. Having multiple solutions is not necessarily a bad thing, but rather they can potentially show you what can be done on a level. It's important to keep an open mind. After all, the more ways you know to do the same thing, the better. I see this in my students all the time. I show multiple methods of solving the same math problem, and then the students can simply take their pick on what they think is easiest for them to do the problem. It's the same thing with solving levels in lemmings. Unless one intended solution has been specifically enforced, it's very unlikely people will solve the same level in the exact same way.

yes i see that. at least that's 2 lined up builders so miner can miner through middle pole. that part reminds me of the 2nd to last level of neolemmix's franlems sadistic level 9 (Queztalings) that i did from dodochacalo. that one I think is the hardest one in the pack to line up the builders steps so miner can mine through 2 stairs going through middle pole. and that is for neolemmix too. It took me 3 days to get the solution to work exactly

I have definitely forgotten about this level. It's been a really long time since I've played Franlems. Now that I have taken a look at the level again, yes it's one of those that's very difficult to set up correctly. It's not a hard level, because the solution is easy. It's the execution of the solution that's very difficult. Thus, this is a really good example of a level where finding the solution is easy, but the execution is very hard. I likened this to computer problems. Often times, it's much easier to identify the problem, but finding a fix/solution is much harder.

[ericderkovits]

just finished with last rank of neolemmix music level pack into superlemmini. was doing 1 rank a day as it takes a bit of time to do. will test 1 rank a day of superlemmi's music compared to neolemmix  version(up to rank 3 of course since I'm almost done converting up to rank 3 only). just to make sure it matches neolemmix version. Of course I have lemmini's version music level pack too. so when this pack gets finished being converted and tested one last time, it will be uploaded. One can then play the pack with either Lemmini's or Neolemmix's music

EDIT: 1st rank done, Matches (tomorrow will test rank 2).