Lemmini - Lemmings for Java - public Alpha

[0xdeadbeef]

43) The password system needs to be rewritten.
...
This is bad since people who kept their own list of passwords will now be in for a rude surprise as some might no longer work in Lemmini even when they'd work in the real game.

I actually disagree for a number of reasons. Firstly, the levelcodes are just a bonus. The way Lemmini is supposed to be played is by clearing one level after the other and in contrary to the Amiga version, Lemmini automatically saves the progress. That being said, the level codes are merely a gimmick to make it feel a little bit more like the Amiga.
Secondly, the codes given by Lemmini work for Lemmini. You couldn't expect more. I must admit, I orginally thought about writing my own algorithm with my very own level codes. I gave this up mainly for having more flexibility.
Thirdly, codes based on the original algorithm wouldn't necessarily work for a custom level pack. I mean even if I could read the info "game 3" from it, what would than mean for a custom level pack? Whereas the way it is now, the creator of the level pack can create his/her own codes and they will work fine. They can even have some meaning to hint which level they belong to.

44) There's something wrong with being able to switch players while you are playing a level.  For example, say I completed Fun 1-2 on Player 1, and then at the title screen or actual level of Fun 3, I use the menu to switch to Player 2.  
45) On a similar note, right now player progress appears to be saved for only the current player, and only when the game is exited, whereas I'd think it should either be saved at every level completion.

The player management is a little buggy, I agree. Will be fixed in the next release I hope.

46) Fun 25's title is incorrect (it used its repeat's title).

Will be fixed

47) Strange behavior with blockers turning builders:  pick a level, say, Taxing 1.  Have the first lemming out build immediately upon landing.  Then have the second lemming out be a blocker immediately upon landing.  Even though the second lemming out would be slightly to the left of the first, and the first is building to the right, nevertheless the first lemming immediately turns around and builds left.

Not sure if I completely got this, but if you mean that a builder (or any other turns) when you assign a blocker directly next to it, this is probably true. Indeed, when creating a blocker, the blocker mask is copied into the mask array. For a lemming which is inside the blocker mask at this moment it "feels" as if he bumped into the mask, since for the last step it wasn't there and now it is.
Dunno, maybe I should have two different blocker masks: one to the left of the blocker and one to the right. Then every lemming could check if it the blocker is left or right to it. I'll think about it.

48) Steel/one-way-wall detection for miner needs to be revised.  For example, see this screenshot from Fun 23:

Indeed, the whole steel digging/bashing/mining issue is a little trickier than it seems. My hope was I could find a "generic" solution without too much special treatment. However, no matter where I set the threshhold for number of steel pixels in the mask before stop mining/bashing/digging, the are always corner cases where it looks shitty.

49) In Fun 9, do nothing and wait until the crowd starts approaching the grinder on the left, and more than 1 lemming has been killed.  Move the cursor to be as left as possible while still highlighting lemmings (basically, highlight the lemmings that are being killed).  You will find that the lemming type text will often read " 4" or the like (ie. a blank followed by a number).

Yeah, some states don't have names as the one which indicates a lemming being killed by a trap (but not part of the trap animation). Internally I call these guys "trapped". I think I should exclude all nameless lemming from the "under the cursor" routine since they can't be assigned a skill anyway.

[0xdeadbeef]

50) This has already been pointed out, but I kinda like to see it fixed so I'm repeating it here:  the jumper.  I know there is currently no graphics yet for the jumper.  So for now, just pick one of the animation frames for the walker to stand in for the jumper, or perhaps just continue on with the walker animation during jumping.  The important thing is that on a step of 3-6 lo-res pixels tall, the lemming (at least in Amiga/PC/Mac etc. Lemmings) does not instantaneously jump to the top of the step, instead it moves up vertically by up to 2 lo-res pixels per lo-res frame until it reaches the top of the step.  Note also that jumpers are not eligible for skill assignment, so you can't for example have it start bashing before it finishes jumping.

I put it on my list. Maybe I can come up with a a little animation myself, but probably my artistic skills are not sufficient. We'll see.

51) I know a while ago, for compatability's sake, you decided to make exploders behave like the real game, where all terrain is taken out when the bomber is standing on steel, and no terrain is taken out when the bomber is not standing on steel.
However, since Lemmini is still masking out steel and one-way-walls when bashing and mining (unlike the original game), I think Lemmini might as well break compatability for exploders also.  That is, go back to the masking approach rather than testing where the bombing is standing.  As far as I know, no levels in the original games of Lemmings or ONML requires the compatible behavior to be solvable.  On the other hand, the compatible behavior often introduces solutions that were probably unintended.

IMHO the possibilities introduced by explosion mask handling are too different to use the correct solution. I mean you guys complain about jumpers and other stuff that doesn't really matter for solving a level, but when it comes to creating massive holes in steel tiles, compatibility doesn't matter? I'm puzzled...
I'd bet there are some custom levels or crude solutions that are based on this "feature".

52) Lemmings can walk thru walls that are only 1 hi-res pixel thick.  You can get this to happen on Fun 20.  After building to the platform with the poles, send a climber up to the first pole.  Then have it build one brick while on the top and then dig down.  If done right, you can have the digger leave undisturbed the leftmost column of hi-res pixels of the pole.  Have the digger dig all the way down the pole and then stop digging.  You've now created a wall only 1 hi-res pixel thick, and lemmings can walk through it.

I must admit they can also walk through thicker walls. I'd guess up to 8 pixels. So I don't think it's a hires issue. I'm aware of this an wil fix this if I have the time and find an elegant solution.
Another bug if I may mention it: when you build up to the ceiling and then keep assigning lemmings the builder skill if they reach the highest step, finally a builder will create a step in the ceiling, move up and get stuck. This was introduced as I was told to remove the checks from the builder before building the first step. Indeed I think I should check the space above the step before stepping up. But at the moment, there is no check...

Did you try the cheat mode (drawing and stuff) by the way? Makes it much easier to check strange behaviour.

[ccexplore]

43) The password system needs to be rewritten.
...
This is bad since people who kept their own list of passwords will now be in for a rude surprise as some might no longer work in Lemmini even when they'd work in the real game.

I actually disagree for a number of reasons. Firstly, the levelcodes are just a bonus. The way Lemmini is supposed to be played is by clearing one level after the other and in contrary to the Amiga version, Lemmini automatically saves the progress. That being said, the level codes are merely a gimmick to make it feel a little bit more like the Amiga.
Secondly, the codes given by Lemmini work for Lemmini. You couldn't expect more.

Unfortunately this leads to massive misunderstanding by users of Lemmini, since the passwords for Lemmini right now not only looks too much like Amiga's, but are actually all valid passwords in Amiga Lemmings.

I believe that if you don't intend for the Amiga passwords to be fully compatible with Lemmini, you should either remove the passwords altogether in Lemmini, or make them sufficiently different from the Amiga ones.  It shouldn't be hard to write a quick program to generate random 10-letter passwords for the 200 or so levels involved.

Not sure if I completely got this, but if you mean that a builder (or any other turns) when you assign a blocker directly next to it, this is probably true. Indeed, when creating a blocker, the blocker mask is copied into the mask array. For a lemming which is inside the blocker mask at this moment it "feels" as if he bumped into the mask, since for the last step it wasn't there and now it is.

Dunno, maybe I should have two different blocker masks: one to the left of the blocker and one to the right. Then every lemming could check if it the blocker is left or right to it. I'll think about it.

The real game does use a left/right mask, just so you know.

[Proxima]

50) This has already been pointed out, but I kinda like to see it fixed so I'm repeating it here:  the jumper.  I know there is currently no graphics yet for the jumper.  So for now, just pick one of the animation frames for the walker to stand in for the jumper, or perhaps just continue on with the walker animation during jumping.  The important thing is that on a step of 3-6 lo-res pixels tall, the lemming (at least in Amiga/PC/Mac etc. Lemmings) does not instantaneously jump to the top of the step, instead it moves up vertically by up to 2 lo-res pixels per lo-res frame until it reaches the top of the step.  Note also that jumpers are not eligible for skill assignment, so you can't for example have it start bashing before it finishes jumping.

I put it on my list. Maybe I can come up with a a little animation myself, but probably my artistic skills are not sufficient. We'll see.

I could e-mail you the animation from the Cheapo graphics, if that would help.

[ccexplore]

IMHO the possibilities introduced by explosion mask handling are too different to use the correct solution.

I'm not sure why that would be the case. &#A0;Steel areas are clearly intended to be indestructible, and there are no levels I know of that requires "creating massive holes in steel tiles", other than "custom levels or crude solutions".

Another bug if I may mention it: when you build up to the ceiling and then keep assigning lemmings the builder skill if they reach the highest step, finally a builder will create a step in the ceiling, move up and get stuck. This was introduced as I was told to remove the checks from the builder before building the first step. Indeed I think I should check the space above the step before stepping up. But at the moment, there is no check...

This is actually the observed behavior in the real game, that you can get the Lemming stuck on a terrain ceiling by building gradually up towards it in the manner you described. &#A0;So it's not really necessary to fix that bug; it's up to you.

edit: in fact, upon further thoughts I'm advising against fixing this bug. &#A0;The platform in Mayhem 2 you need to build from underneath in order to eventually get above it. &#A0;That platform happens to be 6 lo-res pixels thick, the maximum height a lemming can jump up to. &#A0;If in Lemmini, the lemming doesn't step up after building the step that would get it "stuck", it sounds to me like the lemming wouldn't be able to get onto the top of the platform thru building.

[0xdeadbeef]

I could e-mail you the animation from the Cheapo graphics, if that would help.

No, I don't want to steal from Cheapo. Indeed, I painted a minimalistic jumper animation and put the jumper skill in in the last half hour. So it will be in 0.60. Looks a bit silly though.

[ccexplore]

I could e-mail you the animation from the Cheapo graphics, if that would help.

If I recall, although the lemmings in Cheapo does jump, there is no jumper animation in Cheapo; instead the walker animation is used even during jumping (so their legs continue moving about as if walking even as they rise up vertically).  This is what I meant when I suggest the possibility of continuing with the walker animation during jumping.  It doesn't look as good as the actual jumper, but I think it'd work okay for the most part.

[0xdeadbeef]

I'm not sure why that would be the case.  Steel areas are clearly intended to be indestructible, and there are no levels I know of that requires "creating massive holes in steel tiles", other than "custom levels or crude solutions".

Hm, if you keep picking on this, I'll go back to my previous solution. However I'm sure someone will complain

edit: in fact, upon further thoughts I'm advising against fixing this bug.  The platform in Mayhem 2 you need to build from underneath in order to eventually get above it.  That platform happens to be 6 lo-res pixels thick, the maximum height a lemming can jump up to.  If in Lemmini, the lemming doesn't step up after building the step that would get it "stuck", it sounds to me like the lemming wouldn't be able to get onto the top of the platform thru building.

That being said, I notice that the builder actually gets stuck in Mayhem 2 as well. So there is something to fix anyway.

[Proxima]

If I recall, although the lemmings in Cheapo does jump, there is no jumper animation in Cheapo; instead the walker animation is used even during jumping (so their legs continue moving about as if walking even as they rise up vertically).  This is what I meant when I suggest the possibility of continuing with the walker animation during jumping.  It doesn't look as good as the actual jumper, but I think it'd work okay for the most part.

No, there really is a jumper animation. (And 0xdeadbeef: you wouldn't be stealing from Cheapo, since the Cheapo lemmings animations are themselves stolen from the original game......   )

[Proxima]

I'm not sure why that would be the case.  Steel areas are clearly intended to be indestructible, and there are no levels I know of that requires "creating massive holes in steel tiles", other than "custom levels or crude solutions".

Hm, if you keep picking on this, I'll go back to my previous solution. However I'm sure someone will complain

Well, just for the record, I'm with ccexplore on this one.  

[EricLang]

About the steel-destruction-by-explosion: I would leave it as it as in the original game by default.
A few of this detail-things could be made optional: instead of making a choice leave the decision to the end-user.
This item is definitely an "option" to me .
That's because it is a bug.
But i've played levels where lemmings just did NOT die falling from a certain distance because of the bug.
I do not remember which level but a standard one.
Also the miner has a "feature" of mining through steel sometimes (also in the original ).
Is this known?

[ccexplore]

About the steel-destruction-by-explosion: I would leave it as it as in the original game by default.
A few of this detail-things could be made optional: instead of making a choice leave the decision to the end-user.

Eek, I'm quite against the idea of having the core game mechanics be end-user-configurable, especially if we also start throwing in custom levels made by end-users.  The game mechanics should be uniformly applicable to all Lemmini levels, so there's no surprise in what to expect of the game mechanics in any levels, nor the need for level designers and players to think about which game-mechanical "options" to set when playing a particular level.

This item is definitely an "option" to me .
That's because it is a bug.
But i've played levels where lemmings just did NOT die falling from a certain distance because of the bug.
I do not remember which level but a standard one.

But while the solution happens to work, it clearly falls under the category of "crude solutions" (to quote 0xdeadbeef).  It's clear from http://home.wanadoo.nl/lemmings-solution that no levels in Lemmings nor ONML requires the ability to bomb through steel in order to solve the level.  For example, Fun 17 and Taxing 6 would be an example where being able to bomb through steel would create a solution, but othere solutions that are clearly more intended also exist.

It's implicit that in testing Lemmini against the official game levels, I'm not expecting Lemmini to support all possible solutions that work in the real game.  Doing so would pretty much require Lemmini to be exact in its emulation of the real game's mechanics.  Instead, it should be the case that all the levels remain solvable in Lemmini, and that the "intended"/popular solutions continue to work in Lemmini.

Also the miner has a "feature" of mining through steel sometimes (also in the original ).
Is this known?

Can you clarify?  It's true that in the real game, the miner tends to stop after the miner stroke that hits (and therefore removes terrain of, due to lack of masking) steel.  But it nevertheless stops, so it isn't quite accurate to say that you could mine through steel.

Or do you have an actual example in the real game where you can create a pretty deep mine tunnel into steel???

[0xdeadbeef]

Nightly update - let's see what I've broken this time :-?

Fixes/Changes 0.59 -> 0.60
#  Replaced menu "New Player" with "Manage Players" which also allows deleting players
#  Fixed wrong background color of Minimap in 16bit color mode.
#  Current player's progress is stored when changing player or entering the "manage players" menu
#  Introduced "Jumper". Looks a bit silly though.
#  Re-enabled old (exact) explosion masking: only destructible parts are erased.
#  Keys 1..8 can be used to select skills
#  Changed inner workings of blocker mask: it's split into left and right part. A lemming moving right
   will not be influenced by a right side blocker mask and a lemming moving left won't be influenced
   by a left side blocker mask. This should fix lemmings turning around if a blocker was assigned
   next to them though they already passed him.
#  Lemmings with no name (e.g. drowning, killed by a trap, splatting etc.) will not be considered
   for cursor selection. Thus also no "empty" names can appear any more.
#  Fixed name of Fun 25 ("Lemmings Lemmings everywhere")

[ccexplore]

Nightly update - let's see what I've broken this time :-?

Unfortunately, there appears to be some embarassing breaks, especially with the first two:
53) The sound of exiting lemmings is incorrect--in version 0.6 it's now the same sound as the trapdoor opening. ;D
[edit: it seems that there are many other screwed up sound effects as well. &#A0;For example, in Taxing 2 the bear trap has the sound effect of drowning, in Taxing 4 the rope trap has the sound effect of exiting, in Wild 15 the muddy water has the sound of something decidedly non-water, etc.] &#A0;Thankfully, fixed. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

54) Also, I'm not seeing trap animations anymore when they kill a lemming. &#A0;Although in one case, namely Havoc 10, when the leftmost trap is killing a lemming the animation is shown on the rightmost trap. &#A0;This is a serious problem because levels like Havoc 10 and Taxing 6 needs the ability of lemmings passing through a trap unharmed while the trap is operating (trap animation being played). &#A0;Thankfully, fixed. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


55) The title change in Fun 25 caused the same issue as when you changed Fun 9: &#A0;on the level's title screen the "Level 25: ....." is placed too far left with parts of "Level" cut off.  Fixed! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

[EricLang]

@ccexplore: I have no example of deep tunnels through steel . The "mining" a referred to was the "lack of masking" you described.

I don't think there's anything wrong with configurable lemmings, especcially because it is a remake. It's just a some checkbox for highly advanced users: "Apply Steel Explosions Native Bug To Stay Compatible".
Well it was just an idea.