Was: Lemmings: Animated Picture Puzzle or Puzzle Video Game?

[namida]

Edit Simon: WillLem deleted the original topic. Here are only the replies by everyone else.



For most of this, I'm simply going to state "no, that's not NeoLemmix's intended direction; but NeoLemmix is open source so nothing's stopping anyone from creating a fork that behaves like that - the question is whether people will use it or not".

However:

- Timer mode - either removes timers completely, or enables them. If a player doesn't like timers, they can have it always-removed (including any talismans that involve time-based play) and the level will continue indefinitely. Conversely, those that enjoy the timer element can leave it switched on; as I imagine it, level designers could still choose to have infinite-time levels in Timer mode, and implement time-based solutions via a talisman.

As of V12.8.0, gameplay does continue when time runs out, lemmings just don't exit (they become an exiter, but then freeze in place). You could still find out how many lemmings would have exited, by mousing over the group of lemmings that were attempting to exit and seeing how many lemmings NL says there are under the cursor.

It should also be noted that few people are against time limits existing altogether. They are accepted as an anti-backroute measure, as well as in cases where "do this in time" is the puzzle. What's opposed is cases where the time limits are unnecesserially tight (eg: if you can give a spare 10 seconds without opening up any backroutes or killing the overall point of the level, instead of requiring near-perfect execution, do so), or when the only thing they add is "you've got to set the RR to 99 and release the crowd early", etc.

In other words: Whereas invisible elements is pretty much a "do not do this", time limits are merely a "do not abuse this".

[ccexplore]

Happily, I later realised that time limits for solution optimisation could still be used - as talismans! Great - I thought - here's a way to encourage people who enjoy going for time records whilst also keeping proponents of infinite time limits happy!

And then I got criticised for that as well!

Well, you can't please everyone all the time.

Personally I don't have an objection to do time-based talismans.  Speedrunning is quite common and popular amongst all video games, and a quick web search will readily reveal that people will try speedrunning even in games that have no traces whatsoever of time limits (neither in the level nor as achievements/talismans/etc.). 

My point here is: if the option is there to have a time-based talisman, let the level designer use it without criticism:

Or just ignore the criticism? I suspect the degree of criticism in this case is a bit weaker than putting the time limit in the level itself.

Maybe some people are completionists and don't see the talismans in a more optional light than I do?

Granted, it would be better if the time requirement actually forces some meaningful differences to the solution.  Just like speedrunning in most other games, the fastest solution or way through a level is often quite different from the normal ways people would solve/complete the level.  And it's often those differences that make speedrunning that much more satisfying for many people.  Not knowing the specific levels in question nor the exact words of exchange you are referring to, perhaps the criticism in your specific case is more about the time requirement not forcing enough differences to the solution, rather than merely having a time requirement .

Can we agree on this?

You don't need our permission to do anything here.   Of course, it makes sense to be mindful of the community culture insofar as that people feel encouraged rather than discouraged in trying your levels.  I do hope that even for people who don't like time-based talismans, they would at least still play the level without going for the talisman.  It doesn't make sense to me that someone would avoid even playing the level normally, and I imagine the criticism raised in your case doesn't actually mean they are skipping the level altogether.

As a general life lesson, you can't please everyone and you probably shouldn't try to.

[IchoTolot]

Let's say I personally don't care about talismans and I will always question their existence on levels as I stand by: If it's a talisman, either make the level like this the first way or discard it (in the timer case I would lean more to discard).

But that's more a personal opinion and won't lead me to outright disliking the level. I will still question their existence sometimes though.

I think it's totally fine if you wan't to have time attack talismans, it's just like that I personally won't care much about them.

[ccexplore]

Going back to your more general original post.  Well first, it's really too long and I wonder if anyone bothered to read all of it.   I also don't think it helps that your post carries an underlying bias that so-called "animated picture puzzle" (which by the way is not a term used anywhere else) is somehow less than so-called "picture puzzle game" (also not a term in used, at least not in the very narrow, specific way you are using here).  The history of NeoLemmix shifting away from Lemmings, and yet still remain popular, would indicate most people here in fact don't see what you called "animated picture puzzle" as a minus, if anything they probably see it as a plus.

But anyway, I think got a very rough sense of it from skimming.  I think I can still skip over most of what you wrote though, because at the end of the day, you as a player do have the freedom to choose not to use certain features, or to impose additional requirements on yourself regarding how you play.  For example, just don't use framestepping and pausing if you want a higher degree of challenge in executing the level solution, or at least keep its use to as minimum as you can bear.  Interested in solving the level as quickly as you can?  Well the post-level screen tells you how much time you've taken, now replay the level again and see if you can beat that number.

So really, I don't see a lot of NeoLemmix features being restrictive in how you personally want to play the levels.

However, a video game version is able to present further challenges:

- Now solve it with the spawn rate at 99.
- Now solve it with the lemmings moving at double speed.
- Now solve it with an (enforced) time limit of 1:00.
- Now we've put in a hidden trap; see if the same solution works (this couldn't be done in a picture puzzle because there would be no way to accurately place the trap in the picture without revealing its location).
- etc...

Except that's not how most other video games work either.  If a game developer tries to pull this by literally creating multiple levels that are the exact same level except for one little difference, people will rightly complain that the developer is lazy and can't be bothered to actually create a new level.  At the same time, achievements in other games generally do not work by changing the level.  So there could be achievement requiring user to solve the level within N minutes--the player doesn't fail the level if they exceeded N, he/she simply doesn't get the associated achievement.  Other games may have a difficulty setting which alters the level, but the alterations are usually far deeper than changing one minor superficial factor like time limit or release rate.  (Instead, typically you get more enemies, stronger enemies, and/or trickier terrain to navigate [such as shorter platforms in platformer games].)

In short, your example above doesn't seem to even match the reality of most other video games even when we take out NeoLemmix and all the official Lemmings games.

The question that naturally arises from this analysis is: do we really want Lemmings to become nothing more than an animated picture puzzle game?

Based on how the community had behaved for the past several years, I'm afraid the answer leans a lot more towards "yes".  If this matters to you so much, your strategy really shouldn't be to convince us, you should try to find and invite more like-minded people here who actually enjoys more your style of levels, then you can at least have those people play and enjoy the kinds of levels that you seem really intent to make, but currently avoid given the tastes of the community.

Or, like namida said, you could always try to learn computer programming and create your own fork of NeoLemmix changed exactly to your heart's desire.  Although I think you'll probably still need to reach out to some new like-minded people to increase chance of people actually playing your version.

For better or worse, over the past 5-10 years there really hasn't been anyone here who seems to hold your viewpoints quite so strongly and passionately; you are kind of unique in that sense.  I have my theories as to why things had evolved like this, but that can be left for another time and post.

Tetris is usually classified as a puzzle video game, and is one of the greatest examples of puzzle and action/execution being combined.

I realize Tetris is often labeled as a puzzle-style game, but then again I think puzzle games as a category has been made extremely broad.  Personally I would argue Tetris's "puzzle" elements are far, far weaker compared to its action elements.  By virtue of having the sequence of Tetris pieces be randomized and very limited lookahead, you are severely limited in your ability to plan ahead, and then together with the ever increasing speed, the game naturally trends towards forcing the player to become more and more reactionary in their playing.  Really, probably the only reason we can't call it an action game is because it doesn't conform to the trope of having a single character that you have direct control over their movements.  Your average Tricky-rated level in original Lemmings probably has more planning ahead involved than you'd ever do in Tetris.