[DISC][PLAYER] Official game conversions

[namida]

Okay so, it didn't take long for this to get out of control - to the point where the SAME person posted three different L1 conversions, simply to reflect the slight differences between three official ports. So, while I'm sticking to that I don't want to maintain any official conversion (and indeed that I don't think there's a need for one), I'm also going to take steps to ensure there isn't a ridiculous proliferation of them either.

There's three options I'm open to here:
1. Declaring one person to be in charge of conversions.
2. Declaring one particular conversion of each pack (or in some cases, collections of packs) to be "official".
3. Prohibiting such packs altogether, with a special exemption for Redux.

It goes without saying that my favorite is #3, but I'm guessing that won't go down well, so let's talk about whether approach #1 or #2 is the better one to take.

There are some standards I expect in either case, for any conversion:
1. The most critical NL community standards will be respected. By this I mean - I don't care what decision you make around time limits or lemming counts, but unhide the traps (special cases can apply to the hidden exits in the few official levels that have them. That is the ONLY special case I will accept), don't have weird overlaps of steel and non-steel, etc.
2. All levels should be confirmed possible to solve. For cases where a direct conversion is not possible to solve, it is up to the author how they address this.
3. Consistency. If moss-on-steel is handled by total removal in one level, it shouldn't be handled by moving-away-from-the-edges in another. A level and its repeat should retain identical layouts, unless they already had differences. This also means that as far as possible all levels should originate from the same port. Of course, if a level is exclusive to certain ports, that's another matter, but if you're eg. mostly taking levels from Amiga, there shouldn't be one or two that are taken from DOS instead.

[Proxima]

I think that, regardless of what gets labelled "official", it is important that conversions of the original levels are available in an easily accessible place on the forum (and preferably also the NL website), for a number of reasons:

* Challenges -- comparing best results achieved in NL to best results in the original games is interesting, especially as NL is the closest we will ever have to "original mechanics but without glitches".
* Having the levels available as templates for usermade levels. I know that anyone who wants to make a level based on one of the originals will probably be able to find a copy of the level without too much hassle, but it would be nice to have an easily accessible collection.
* For anyone who simply wants the experience of playing through the levels in NL with its convenience features. I know this group might not be large, as historically there has been a lot of overlap between people who want to play the original levels and people who want original mechanics such as timed bombers -- and such people would be better directed to emulators rather than NL. Still, it's not zero -- especially as there are many versions (Genesis, SMS, PSP etc) with unique levels, and people who grew up with the Amiga/DOS/Mac game often want to experience the unique levels without going to the trouble of digging out a Genesis emulator and playing the levels via its clunky controls.

If you need someone to "be in charge" of conversions, I am willing to take this on, so long as it's understood that the work won't be done overnight. I would like to do a thorough job of looking through all the levels (using the most recent official conversions as a starting-point) and seeing what tweaks I would like to make, with community input where necessary.

I do, however, think that other conversions don't do any harm just by existing, and removing them from the forum is a bit harsh. Maybe there should be a single thread for people to post such conversions, either in NeoLemmix Levels or in Level Design.

[ccexplore]

Okay so, it didn't take long for this to get out of control - to the point where the SAME person posted three different L1 conversions, simply to reflect the slight differences between three official ports.

Well, I think they also come with music specific to the port.

I have no immediate use of any of them myself and certainly won't be playing most of them anytime soon, but like Proxima said, there seems to be little harm in them existing?  AFAIK they aren't labeled as "official" or anything like that either.

[namida]

Removing a few recent ones was not purely because "they exist", but rather, because there's only so many times I'm willing to keep merging a serial posting of similar topics from the same user that should've been a single topic in the first place.

The unique levels are available for Lemmix, which is far closer to the original games, especially in regards to any DOS versions. But even for Amiga / SNES / etc levels, it's very close; and it's still closer than NL for the remainder. I believe the majority are available for Lemmini and SuperLemmini too, which are both still closer than NL is, especially the former.

It seems a bit weak IMO to have levels solely because it provides a few more levels to try challenges on, especially when the vast majority of user-made content out there hasn't been challenge'd yet so there's no shortage of NL content to do them with at this point in time. Even if we restrict it only to content that's particularly well-suited to challenges, there's still a good number of packs that haven't been touched yet - and it's questionable how many of the non-Redux official levels are "well-suited to challenges" either.

That leaves only the question of derivatives, which is the one point I completely agree with - but this doesn't require any kind of structured conversion pack that includes music and the like; it requires at most a direct NXLV conversion of each LVL file. One could even argue there's no need to have both versions of levels that are repeated, except in the cases where they have minor layout differences, as the aspects that differ between each version are almost certianly going to be changed further in a derivative level (and if not, can be very easily reconstructed manually). And if sacrificing that is the cost of finally putting an end to this mentality that NL is, or could be, or should be, a suitable platform for playing the games "as they originally were", that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make tbh. While this latest fiasco may be where I've finally snapped and decided it's time to do something about this, this has been a recurring problem for a long time - someone comes along, and complains that the official levels (which NL is not an ideal platform for playing) "don't have timed bombers" or some dumb shit like that; which to me feels on par with going up to, say, the developers of a Sonic game and complaining that you can't hit your head on the bottom of blocks to get powerup mushrooms.

[Proxima]

It seems a bit weak IMO to have levels solely because it provides a few more levels to try challenges on, especially when the vast majority of user-made content out there hasn't been challenge'd yet so there's no shortage of NL content to do them with at this point in time.

The specific reason why I think it's interesting is that the vast majority of our challenge results are for the original levels in DOS; so when doing challenges in NL, doing the original levels has the added interest of seeing how results compare to DOS results. (And, of course, this is especially interesting to me because I never liked the glitches in the original games and only grudgingly accepted that we had to allow them.)

[WillLem]

Okay so, it didn't take long for this to get out of control - to the point where the SAME person posted three different L1 conversions, simply to reflect the slight differences between three official ports.

Not to say "I told you so", but I pretty much predicted this! ("Some "version" or other needs to be accepted as official, otherwise you'll end up with multiple, unchecked versions from various sources")

As you've said, it's only likely to continue to happen in the absence of a pack that's accepted as the "official" conversion.

I totally agree that NeoLemmix is not the ideal place for the original levels, and I'd further suggest that its status as a host for custom packs is the very thing that keeps its community vibrant (it's one of the reasons I think the menu should be different from the DOS and Amiga versions). I can also sympathise with your frustration here.

However, as I've said somewhere else in another post, the best way to promote "the NeoLemmix way" is to do exactly that - promote the NeoLemmix way - rather than bad-mouthing the original games and their various flaws. That's just a way to lose potential converts.

2. Declaring one particular conversion of each pack (or in some cases, collections of packs) to be "official".

+1 for this. Don't stop people from sharing their own conversions, but make it clear that there is an accepted standard, point to it clearly, and let that be the end of the debate.

Incidentally, as much as I originally expressed enthusiasm with being the person to manage such conversions, in hindsight it's probably a much bigger task than I'd actually want to take on, and so I'd wholeheartedly nominate Proxima's currently-in-progress conversion for this purpose.

The unique levels are available for Lemmix...I believe the majority are available for Lemmini and SuperLemmini too, which are both still closer than NL is

People love NeoLemmix, though. It's a great platform, and it's only natural that Lemmings fans will want the experience of playing the original levels in NeoLemmix.

Yes, it's frustrating that some of those people may then complain that the experience is too different from what they're used to, but that's the nature of basing a new game directly on an old game - you'll obviously inherit a lot of the old game's fanbase, and everything that goes with that for better or worse.

finally putting an end to this mentality that NL is, or could be, or should be, a suitable platform for playing the games "as they originally were"

I just want to make it clear that this has never been the reason I've focused on original levels in NeoLemmix. Take a look at my packs: the vast majority of them are remix packs; I have no issue with playing these levels not as intended!

Also, as I've stated elsewhere, part of the fun of porting levels is getting the experience of playing the same, familiar levels in a new platform with different features.

Any sense of "authenticity" or "preservation" I've ever wanted has been more to do with how the levels are presented visually rather than how they actually play.

NeoLemmix is its own game and needs to start being treated and promoted as such - agreed. An updated menu, Redux being bundled with it, and perhaps even a mission statement in the download topic itself would all help with this.

Meanwhile, I'll continue to encourage Tsyu to build SuperLemmini into a more "modern classic" version of the game, which keeps old-schoolers happy whilst also offering some more modern gameplay features. Such a version definitely has a market, however small - it's the reason I'm even on the forums in the first place!

[ericderkovits]

I would definitely like to see backward framestepping in Superlemmini as this to me is the one big thing I like more about neolemmix. Because I hate having to replay from the beginning to the point I made a mistake. Yes I would also like Tsyu to add more features to Superlemmini to make it more attractive to old-timers like me. Also I think he said he is going to have a better-looking logo in the next version.

[ericderkovits]

Also I have decided to not upload anything more to neolemmix in regards  to levels since it is causing a disturbance with the official conversions. I will focus more now on Superlemmini as I think that engine is more suited for me. Hopefully soon Tsyu will keep us informed about how Superlemmini's update is going.

[namida]

I would definitely like to see backward framestepping in Superlemmini as this to me is the one big thing I like more about neolemmix.

Lemmix has backwards framestepping, and is physics-wise as close as you'll get to the official games (specifically, the DOS versions) other than literally playing the official versions via an emulator. Timed bombers, glitches, and all.

[ericderkovits]

as far as glitches i don't care for those. I'm just happy playing the original games but the thing I don't like about lemmix is the music. Using the music downloads for those are not good. hearing xmas music sometimes in genesis levels doesn't make sense to me. The reason I like neolemmix is like WillLem posted. Neolemmix has so many features I like over Lemmix and even Superlemmini. But since neolemmix is mostly for custom play I will see what Tsyu has up his sleeve.

Also I can still play neolemmix with different port versions. I will just do these for myself just will not be uploading anything in reguard to levels or packs.

[ericderkovits]

also I have the original L1 Amiga levels in Lix (orig) and the tame levels for ohno(lix) and the 2player ones for amiga and someone made those matched 2p genesis. I had to fix some of the images files since they were outdated. And although it's not lemmings at least I can play those levels somewhat without lemming music, release rates, clocks, etc. It's just neat to play the originals even in LIX. also minim made the Battle of Midway that I wanted for LIX.

[Proxima]

Yes, if the outcome of this thread ends up being that my conversions can go ahead, then the above posts should be moved there.

[mantha16]

well my tuppence worth is I enjoy some of the levels from the original games but just repeating them over and over again with various slight tweaks is boring as **** to me.

With the amount of amazing creative talent available from content producers in this community thats far more appealing to me.  I see the point of having Apack that has recognisable levels to attract new players totally makes sense but beyond that I think its a monumental waste of time and talent.

No offence to WillLem I love his custom stuff and cant wait for Leminas 2 and I really should get back to working on our collab. but I don't have any interest in his conversions because thats not for me and his talents are (just in my opinion) wasted on conversions since his custom work is so good.

Anyone who is into tattoos and tattoo culture it would be like going to chris nunez or mike rubendall or tommy montoya and saying yeah i know you are at the top of your game but I dont want to utilise your artistic skills for a custom piece just slap this big of flash on me (sorry ive been binging ink master its the best analogy i could think of)

But WillLem (and any of the other conversion fans) enjoy doing it so I would never say they shouldn't this is only my opinion

[WillLem]

No offence to WillLem I love his custom stuff and cant wait for Leminas 2 and I really should get back to working on our collab. but I don't have any interest in his conversions because thats not for me and his talents are (just in my opinion) wasted on conversions since his custom work is so good.

None taken, and thanks for your kind words.

The reason I enjoy doing remixes is because I learn a lot about level building/structure/etc from the process, which then informs my own projects. Doing the conversions has also taught me a fair bit as well, and has sparked some interesting conversations.

Anyways, I'm happy not to spend any more time on original level conversions from here on out as there are other people on this forum who are better suited to the task; I'm mainly going to be concentrating on playing custom packs for a while now.

[namida]

Okay so - it's clear that, as suspected, there's enough interest in these existing (I really don't get why, but that's another matter). Let's sort out the how.

Proxima seems to be the most interested in doing this, and I'm satisfied from his past work that he's more than capable of doing this, while making sure it fits NL (or at least comes as close as possible, since some of the official levels are a poor fit for NL no matter what's done with them). Any objections here?