[PROPOSALS][PLAYER] New menu design

[WillLem]

It's worth noting that a pack containing several sub-packs is still capable of having different rank graphics and logos etc for each individual sub-pack; Amiga Lemmings does this, and I keep the Lemmings Plus series in a parent folder without it affecting any of the rank signs, logos or anything for any of the packs in that set.

I suggest that the only cards needed for the menu are:

PLAY / RANK / LEVELS / SETTINGS

Any others just clutter it up tbh. Exit (Esc) could simply be a small button at the top left.

[IchoTolot]

I disaggree with that. Buttons in the top corner can easily be overlooked and yes even Exit should not be hidden away.

You could consider "press ESC to exit" is common knowledge, but you really don't wanna assume people know stuff. In the end someone doesn't and gets frustrated.

Talismans is another thing though. I would agree that this can be better displayed in the level select screen as part of the level info.

[namida]

I disaggree with that. Buttons in the top corner can easily be overlooked and yes even Exit should not be hidden away.

On the other hand, top-right corner is where I'd instinctively look for a close button if there was nothing more obvious - and in particular, I'd consider that more "common knowledge" than Esc, especially these days.

[WillLem]

I disaggree with that. Buttons in the top corner can easily be overlooked

On the contrary, it's where the Exit button is for most applications. It's the first place I'd look.

You could consider "press ESC to exit" is common knowledge, but you really don't wanna assume people know stuff

To be fair, I haven't made this assumption. I've suggested that the Exit button be moved somewhere that a) makes more sense, b) decreases clutter, and c) allows use of 4 menu cards, which can be more neatly displayed in one row than 5.

Talismans is another thing though. I would agree that this can be better displayed in the level select screen as part of the level info.

I'm glad we all seem to agree on this. At least we know that 5 cards will ultimately be the maximum number and we can start to get designs together based on that.

As for the EXIT card/button, or whether or not there should be one or two rows of cards/buttons, it seems like it's the sort of thing that's best decided by poll.

[Strato Incendus]

I kind of like that Talisman sign and the window behind it is back, actually. I don't particularly care for Talismans in general, but when I do, my sense of "completionism" is triggered much more easily by having them all in a nice overview that can be completed - instead of just attached to every single level as a random additional challenge that you can either accept or not.

Maybe the other "completionists" here on the forums (e.g. kaywhyn and ericderkovits) agree with me on that?

[kaywhyn]

I kind of like that Talisman sign and the window behind it is back, actually. I don't particularly care for Talismans in general, but when I do, my sense of "completionism" is triggered much more easily by having them all in a nice overview that can be completed - instead of just attached to every single level as a random additional challenge that you can either accept or not.

Like you, I don't care for the talismans in general. I am simply content with solving levels by any means possible. Once I finish a pack, I generally won't go back and try for the talismans I didn't get on my first playthrough. Pretty much the only way I would get talismans is by "accident," because I generally don't try for them, or I didn't know there was one for the level. This is especially the case for Old Formats, because the requirements aren't displayed in the level preview like they are in New Formats in addition to also seeing it in the talisman menu in the main menu. Not to mention that most of the talismans are probably beyond my ability to obtain them, but I think it mostly depends on the pack. Like I've tried getting some for Nepsterlems, but they're just too hard and beyond what I'm capable of achieving, and so when I do resume playing the pack again, I'm not going to go for any of the talismans. At the same time, the only ones likely to be of interest to me are the time solution talismans, eg, complete the level in less than x minutes, particularly since I love time limits in the game and I'm a huge numbers fan. You would think this also extends to skill talismans, eg, complete using no more than x builders, but I found a lot of these way too difficult for me.

[Proxima]

I'm a talisman completionist, but I don't like the current main-menu talisman option and I think we may as well cull it if we can't make it better. For a start, it isn't a "nice overview" -- it displays four talismans per page and it's tedious to flip through them if you are looking for information on a particular one. The best overview we have is the talisman icons next to levels in the F2 level list.

My suggestion for a talisman overview screen would be a pop-up like the level list, but instead of listing levels, it lists talismans for the current pack, in a similar font size to the level list, so that up to around 30 talismans can be seen at once. This could be a main-menu button but it could also be accessed from the level list, and that would be preferable to avoid clutter.

[WillLem]

In order of preference:

1) Put Talismans in F2 menu (there could even be a button to display just talisman info as a list within that menu), have an Exit button in the top right, arrange the remaining 4 cards onto 1 row
2) Put Talismans in F2 menu, have an Exit card (meaning 5 cards altogether), and arrange the 5 cards onto 1 row
3) Have a card for both Talismans and Exit, and arrange the 6 cards onto 2 rows
4) Put Talismans in F2 menu, have an Exit card and arrange the 5 cards onto 2 rows
5) Status quo

Basically, if we must have 2 rows, I'd rather there be 6 cards (3 on each row), so in that case I'd vote for keeping the Talisman card. But then, I'd strongly recommend a new Talisman screen as the existing one isn't very usable, as Proxima has correctly pointed out.

The best option of all (it seems to me) is to incorporate talisman info into the F2 screen, have an X/Esc button in the top left (or top right) of the screen for exit, and then arrange the remaining 4 cards onto one neat row.

[namida]

As some of you may have seen on Discord, I did a bit of work towards this at last.

Here's a level preview screen, keeping the existing layout for the most part but it's now using an 864x486 canvas (in a window of the same proportions) and a 19px tall font.



The text on the preview screen already was centered based on (non-hardcoded) canvas size, and adjusting NL to actually use a 19px tall font, meant almost everything here fell into place already using existing code. The only further tweaks were to make the level preview make use of the additional horizontal space available; to move the text down a bit so the vertical size of the preview could be expanded accordingly (overall, the preview area increased from 640x128 to 864x160); and to increase the length at which the talisman requirement text wraps onto a new line.

Particularly nice is that, the 160px tall preview area means a lot of levels (the one in the above image included) can in fact fit, full-size, on the preview screen, instead of having to be shrunk. Far from a critical thing, but it's still neat.

Of course, I realise that further changes to this screen are VERY likely, this is mostly for a preliminary "make everything work, as-is, in 16:9" step before working on actually redesgning / adjusting the screens that need it.

[namida]

Here's actual screenshots of a one-line vs two-line menu. In both cases, the talisman panel is removed.

To be clear - custom rank panel graphics are still supported! However, instead of placeholders that either say "Step XX" or "Rank graphic not found", I've added code that will auto-generate a meaningful placeholder using the menu font, and that's why the rank graphic is such in these screenshots.

Actually seeing them in action, I much prefer the two-line look, even with the taller cards. I am wondering whether they should be spaced out a bit more horizontally, though. EDIT: Added a more-spaced-out two lines.

Note that the graphics for the cards themself are just lazy vertical stretches. Any final production would be much nicer, of course. (Existing custom panels would continue to work as-is, but would not be adjusted height-wise so might look a bit small on the new layout.)

The logo used here is also unaltered from the existing one for LPV. However, the new menu code will accept any logo up to 864x144 in size (vs current menu allowing up to 632x94). In practice, you'd want to leave some margin around the sides, so I'd suggest sticking under 848x128.

[namida]

I've done a full rewrite of the menu code. The new menu code currently keeps the existing design (currently using the two-rows, spaced layout, though this is very easy to change under the new code), but has slightly smoother + faster animation on the scroller, widens the scroller a bit, and has full mouse support (except for accessing some of the hidden functions like Cleanse Levels - but if you can see it on the screen, you can click on it). And yes, there are hover / click graphics, though these are automatically generated.

One other change is that it no longer shows the "Step __" or "Rank graphic not found" placeholders. Instead, it will generate a rank graphic if one is not present, by simply writing the rank name in the menu font (and shrinking it down if need be to fit).

Still some minor stuff to address here, including the "one row or two?" question, but for the most part, what needs to be done for the title screen is done. The other screens that still need significant attention are the preview screen, and the level select menu.

[namida]

Here's a video showing the new menus in action: https://youtu.be/J1ztE2pamKs

I've also made a dedicated topic for discussion of further changes to the title screen: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5158.0

[namida]

As there's so much support for the one line and two-line-spaced options (and no votes at all so far for anything else, including "no preference"), I've removed all other options except "no preference". Assume one of these two layouts will be the final result.

[namida]

Dedicated topics exist for a few particular areas that have had / need the most attention:

- Title screen
- Level select menu
- Preview screen

Please use those topics going forward for any discussion on those particular areas. This topic remains the place to discuss all other menu screens / popups.

[namida]

It was brought up that the preview screen should perhaps have a clickable element for Load Replay.

As a flipside to this, perhaps the postview screen should have one for Save Replay?