[SUPERLEMMINI] Ron Stard's Rodents

[Ron_Stard]

My first level pack ever!

I've always wanted to make one with the original graphic styles and the original skills. So here it is!

Ron Stard's Rodents has 10 levels with 10 different graphic styles from the original games previous to Lemmings 2: Lemmings, Oh No! More Lemmings! and Xmas/Holiday Lemmings. I have omitted the special graphic styles because I think they are weakly associated with the Lemmings Saga.

I've tried to make levels with creative solutions, tight time limit and not too many lemmings. But of course, the experienced player may find the pack very easy and/or boring. Anyway, I hope you enjoy it!

Changelog
2020/06/17 - Third version of the pack - 1.0.1b
-Fixed level 8 of Amusing rank - previously, it was not solvable due to SuperLemmini/Commodore Amiga physics. Thanks to kaywhyn for spotlighting the abomination
2020/05/30 - Second version of the pack - 1.0.1
-Terrain changes in levels 2, 6, 7, 9 and 10 of Amusing rank
-Number of lemmings increased in level 10 of Amusing rank (from 20 to 24)
-Skillset changes in level 10 of Amusing rank
2020/05/23 - Initial release - 1.0.0

[Ron_Stard]

Pack updated! Some backroutes fixed, and much more!

Changelog
2020/05/30 - Second version of the pack - 1.0.1
-Terrain changes in levels 2, 6, 7, 9 and 10 of Amusing rank
-Number of lemmings increased in level 10 of Amusing rank (from 20 to 24)
-Skillset changes in level 10 of Amusing rank
2020/05/23 - Initial release - 1.0.0

[kaywhyn]

Hey Ron, just wanted to check with you about something, and that is level 8 of your rodents pack. Have you confirmed that level 8 is solvable in Superlemmini? If it is, then the builders and basher have to be placed extremely precisely. I'm able to get the basher to keep going after the first builder, but I have not been able to keep it going for the second builder. I can confirm the level is solvable in Neolemmix, so I know the solution to the level, I'm just not sure if Neolemmix's solution to the level will also work in Superlemmini. That's because the basher checks in Neolemmix are far more forgiving than it is in Superlemmini, and so the solution is much easier to pull off in Neolemmix. It's either impossible in Superlemmini, or it is possible, but the builder and basher placements have to be extremely precise. I have pretty much tried every position possible even with framestepping but the basher always stops, so this right here should mean the level is impossible in Superlemmini. However, if you tell me you were able to solve it in Superlemmini, in that case I have not found the correct placements of the skills yet.

[Ron_Stard]

Hey Ron, just wanted to check with you about something, and that is level 8 of your rodents pack. Have you confirmed that level 8 is solvable in Superlemmini?

I'm sorry to confirm that the level is, indeed, unsolvable under SuperLemmini physics. Didn't notice until now that you mentioned it: shame on me for not testing it thoroughly .
There are two ways to fix this: one of them is for me to slightly change the terrain in order to mantain the solution, via trial and error. The other one is to inform of this to Tsyu, the programmer of SuperLemmini, because maybe this is a bug (or maybe not).

I'll send Tsyu a P.M. with this issue. I hope you still enjoy the rest of the pack!

[kaywhyn]

Ah, so the level is indeed impossible in Superlemmini. This right here is a good example of physics differences between the different engines that may render a level solvable in one engine but is unsolvable in another. As mentioned before, the basher checks are more leninent in Neolemmix than they are in other engines, say, Superlemmini or Lemmini, which is why the solution is much easier to pull off in Neolemmix. There's likely other differences that seem quite minor but still make a huge difference when trying them out in different engines. The conclusion here is that just because something works for Neolemmix doesn't automatically mean that it'll still work on other engines. Most of the time, the same solution will still work, but there are some cases where they can still fail because of differences in mechanics/physics. The differences, as I understand them, are largely in part due to the direction that the creators wanted to take the engines in. Superlemmini mostly (keyword: mostly) tried to emulate Amiga gameplay, while Neolemmix pretty much got rid of the glitches that are present in Dos and Amiga and hence is pretty much an entirely different engine on its own.

In any case, the differences among the engines are enough that it's necessary to test your levels to make sure they are still solvable in the engines that you intend the pack for before release. It should had been very easy to test each level since there's only 10, but for larger packs, as much as it is a pain, you will make a better impression since you will have confirmed each level is still possible. I'm just surprised that no one else has reported a problem with level 8 before I did yesterday. The easiest way is to simply have a working replay of each level. I know it's more painful in Superlemmini, since you need to manually save the replay, whereas Neolemmix provides the option for automatically saving a reply when you pass a level.

[Ron_Stard]

Ah, so the level is indeed impossible in Superlemmini. This right here is a good example of physics differences between the different engines that may render a level solvable in one engine but is unsolvable in another. As mentioned before, the basher checks are more leninent in Neolemmix than they are in other engines, say, Superlemmini or Lemmini, which is why the solution is much easier to pull off in Neolemmix. There's likely other differences that seem quite minor but still make a huge difference when trying them out in different engines. The conclusion here is that just because something works for Neolemmix doesn't automatically mean that it'll still work on other engines. Most of the time, the same solution will still work, but there are some cases where they can still fail because of differences in mechanics/physics. The differences, as I understand them, are largely in part due to the direction that the creators wanted to take the engines in. Superlemmini mostly (keyword: mostly) tried to emulate Amiga gameplay, while Neolemmix pretty much got rid of the glitches that are present in Dos and Amiga and hence is pretty much an entirely different engine on its own.

In any case, the differences among the engines are enough that it's necessary to test your levels to make sure they are still solvable in the engines that you intend the pack for before release. It should had been very easy to test each level since there's only 10, but for larger packs, as much as it is a pain, you will make a better impression since you will have confirmed each level is still possible. I'm just surprised that no one else has reported a problem with level 8 before I did yesterday. The easiest way is to simply have a working replay of each level. I know it's more painful in Superlemmini, since you need to manually save the replay, whereas Neolemmix provides the option for automatically saving a reply when you pass a level.

SuperLemmini was the only engine in which I did not test the levels thoroughly. But I can confirm you they all are solvable in Vanilla Lemmix, Lemmix and CustLemm (MS-DOS), and of course, in NeoLemmix. I deeply apologise for the inconveniences

I've sent Tsyu a private message regarding this issue. Meanwhile, you can play the (Vanilla) Lemmix and MS-DOS versions of the pack, if you want, by downloading my levelpack from the Camanis site:

http://lemmings-db.camanis.net/levelpack/ag1zfmxlbW1pbmdzLWRichYLEglMZXZlbFBhY2sYgICAtJGIlAoM/

[kaywhyn]

That's great that you tested your levels on all those other engines, but since you didn't completely on Superlemmini, my point about testing on each engine you plan to release your pack for to ensure each level is solvable still stands. The basher checks being different is not necessarily a bug, but since we're not sure what Tsyu intended with basher mechanics, we'll see what he says. Still a good learning experience.

All good, though. I already completed this pack on Neolemmix some time ago. However, it was for the first version, so I've yet to try the pack in its second version. Perhaps I should give that a go sometime.

[Tsyu]

After some testing, I've found that the basher mechanics are slightly different between the Amiga and DOS versions, and SuperLemmini is indeed mimicking the Amiga behavior as intended.

In the DOS version, I'm able to get the basher to the other side of the walls by doing the following:

Spoiler

• Assign the climber skill to the first two lemmings as soon as they appear.
• Assign the basher skill to the last lemming in front of the first wall, timing it so that the first stroke digs exactly three pixels into the wall.
• Assign the builder skill to the first lemming as soon as it lands behind the first wall.
• Ditto for the second lemming once it lands behind the second wall.

This works fine in the DOS version--the basher gets all the way through the walls without stopping. In SuperLemmini, this isn't possible--depending on how I time the basher assignment, the basher stops just after either the second wall (if too early) or the first wall (if too late). I even saved a replay of one attempt where the basher stopped after the second wall, and edited that replay to delay the basher assignment by one frame, and then the basher stopped after the first wall. So, there is certainly no "Goldilocks" timing here.

I also tried the level in the Amiga version by editing a savestate, and then played using the procedure above. Guess what--the basher stops after the second wall, just like in SuperLemmini! If I have the first stroke dig four pixels into the wall instead, the basher stops after the first wall--again, just like in SuperLemmini.

So, this is a case of the Amiga and DOS versions behaving differently in some regard, with SuperLemmini mimicking the Amiga behavior fairly accurately.

(I haven't confirmed it, but it looks like the DOS version's basher check is done either at a lower row of pixels or a bit farther out from the lemming.)

[Ron_Stard]

Thank you for your feedback, Tsyu. I'll make a new version of the level correcting this issue.

[ccexplore]

(I haven't confirmed it, but it looks like the DOS version's basher check is done either at a lower row of pixels or a bit farther out from the lemming.)

DOS version checks 4 pixels all of which are 6 pixels above ground level (ie. if y is at the pixel of terrain the lemming is standing on top of, then y-6 with smaller y being closer to the top).  The 4 pixels are from x+8 to x+11 where x is at the pixel of terrain the lemming is standing on.  If at least 1 of those 4 pixels are terrain, then the basher continues, otherwise it stops.  Furthermore, this check is only done after odd number of strokes; after an even number of strokes the basher will always continue on regardless of how little terrain is in front.  (This means outside of interruptions due to eg. steel or falling, a basher always bashes an odd number of strokes before stopping.)

I hadn't tested Amiga's mechanics as much, nor do I remember the details off top of my head now.  I'm guessing it checks x+9 to x+12 since the basher stroke in Amiga extends 1 pixel farther out compare to DOS, but I suppose it could also be x+8 to x+11 (which would then effectively be x+9 to x+11 in most cases, since x+8 is part of the removed terrain on Amiga).  I think it's still y-6--that's easy to check, it's exactly how many pixels you need to dig down on flat ground before you can bash without stopping.  I want to say the "skip check on even stroke" also applies but I could be mistaken (Mac is only version I know for sure doesn't skip the check, but it also does y-5 instead of y-6).

[Ron_Stard]

DOS version checks 4 pixels all of which are 6 pixels above ground level (ie. if y is at the pixel of terrain the lemming is standing on top of, then y-6 with smaller y being closer to the top).  The 4 pixels are from x+8 to x+11 where x is at the pixel of terrain the lemming is standing on.  If at least 1 of those 4 pixels are terrain, then the basher continues, otherwise it stops.  Furthermore, this check is only done after odd number of strokes; after an even number of strokes the basher will always continue on regardless of how little terrain is in front.  (This means outside of interruptions due to eg. steel or falling, a basher always bashes an odd number of strokes before stopping.)

I hadn't tested Amiga's mechanics as much, nor do I remember the details off top of my head now.  I'm guessing it checks x+9 to x+12 since the basher stroke in Amiga extends 1 pixel farther out compare to DOS, but I suppose it could also be x+8 to x+11 (which would then effectively be x+9 to x+11 in most cases, since x+8 is part of the removed terrain on Amiga).  I think it's still y-6--that's easy to check, it's exactly how many pixels you need to dig down on flat ground before you can bash without stopping.  I want to say the "skip check on even stroke" also applies but I could be mistaken (Mac is only version I know for sure doesn't skip the check, but it also does y-5 instead of y-6).

Your research is pretty impressive! It's no surprise the engines for mimicking Lemmings are so accurate
I will never be grateful enough for all the work and efforts you've all made along the years

[Ron_Stard]

Ok, finally I was able to fix Level 8. Here is attached the new version of the pack.

Changelog
2020/06/17 - Third version of the pack - 1.0.1b
-Fixed level 8 of Amusing rank - previously, it was not solvable due to SuperLemmini/Commodore Amiga physics. Thanks to kaywhyn for spotlighting the abomination
2020/05/30 - Second version of the pack - 1.0.1
-Terrain changes in levels 2, 6, 7, 9 and 10 of Amusing rank
-Number of lemmings increased in level 10 of Amusing rank (from 20 to 24)
-Skillset changes in level 10 of Amusing rank
2020/05/23 - Initial release - 1.0.0

Enjoy it!

[kaywhyn]

Odd. The file is in my Superlemmini directory, but when I launch it it doesn't detect the pack.

[Ron_Stard]

Odd. The file is in my Superlemmini directory, but when I launch it it doesn't detect the pack.

Try downloading again, I've already fix that.

[kaywhyn]

Yes, the new link works! Level 8 is now indeed solvable. I'm not sure what you did, but I'm guessing you made the gaps between the walls just a little bit wider, which apparently is enough to make the solution work. Now that the level's done, I was able to beat the remaining two levels. I could use the same solution as I did in Neolemmix for both 9 and 10. However, there is a bug that should not be happening on level 9, and that is the lemmings don't splat when they should. Most obvious is send a climber from the bottom entrance up the right wall, which is clearly splat height, but lemmings don't splat. They do splat correctly in Neolemmix and the other levels in Superlemmini. In any case, 9 is still solvable, and the solution doesn't use the non-splat height bug anyway. Also, 10 is barely solvable, because when bashing the lemming still destroys the steel partially. It's still solvable, but there is one, and only one, basher position that will work so that all of the wall is destroyed but none of the steel gets destroyed. Any other position will result in the basher stopping too soon and the wall not completely destroyed, preventing the bottom entrance from climbing the wall. Hence, apparently the steel detection area is apparently much larger in Superlemmini than in Neolemmix. Once again, this emphasizes the point that it's very important to test levels for solvability in all engines you release your pack for. In this case, I have confirmed for you the remaining levels after 8 are still solvable in Superlemmini despite these technicalities.