The original Lemmings 2-player maps

[RubiX]

Simon, is the current version of Lix still able to import the original lemmings graphic sets and .lvl  files?     
(I tried but couldn't work out where the filetypes needed to go, and just get the black screen on a .lvl file)  So i'm either putting .dat and graphics files in wrong locations, or this is out of scope of the filetypes Lix is designed to read, since its a different engine than l++

I was just talking with my brother about our old days playing lemmings and he asked if your current release has all the original maps, as he only wants to play those maps with me.
Had to ask him why he isn't really interested in the other multiplayer stuff.    His reasoning is actually very understanding.

He likes that Lix can do more than 2 players, but wants to be able to jump straight into gameplay that he is highly familiar with and there is the nostalgic feel too from those maps.
He joined us once in a multiplayer game about 6 years ago (with his girlfriend)   Just found it way too much to dive into,  too many skills and keys to try get a hang of and just overwhelming.  (we all know this though, that can be said for any strategy type game)   Takes a lot of practice.
   


So I want to create a pack consisting of remakes of the 30 multiplayer amiga maps:     Lemmings (20 maps)    ONML (10 maps)

I still have an old LPP version that has all the 2player maps in it, but it would be much more pleasing to recreate in Lix with the nicer looking terrain, than play the old LPP.
So I want to load the old data in Lix, then replace terrain with new blocks as close to the original as possible, deleting old terrain as I go, then saving as a file in Lix.

Then I would give the maps just the original 8 skills (I guess only difference being the instant exploders) from lemmings/onml,  so it gives the old authentic feel only.   
[Additionally I would place only the original lemmings & ONML OGG's in the music directory, zip it all up and send to my brother so we can play them and surely have it feel very similar to how we used to 1v1 on those maps.]


Having these maps as a downloadable map pack could be something other people who grew up on lemmings 2-player may also be looking for, as people can dive right into Lix and start playing 2-player maps they are already familiar with, before exploring the world of new and often confusing multiplayer maps.

[Proxima]

In this topic I converted the original 2P levels to Lix. Simon chose not to include them with the main download because they are remakes of official levels. I believe I may have changed the skillsets, but you could easily edit these to restore the original skillsets if you prefer.

[RubiX]

oh yea!  I have even posted in that thread a long time ago, just completely forgot you did this.
Nice!

I still need to try get the ONML ones converted, but thats  2/3rds the battle already done at least

[Simon]

No, Lix doesn't load Lemmings 1 nor Lemmings 2 terrain. It doesn't load Lemmings 1 .lvl maps either.

This always felt like too much extra work to port.

I introduced Lemmings 1 file support in L++ in summer 2009, before showing L++ on the forums here in October 2009, to make it look nicer. In the years after, NeoLemmix filled the Lemmings 1 terrain niche.

Try Proxima's maps! Have fun!

-- Simon

[RubiX]

Yea NP,  Proxima already done the L1 maps anyway, so thats great.
I can do a side by side copy of the ONML maps into LIX , its only 10 maps.   No big deal now 

[WillLem]

No, Lix doesn't load Lemmings 1 nor Lemmings 2 terrain. It doesn't load Lemmings 1 .lvl maps either.

This always felt like too much extra work to port.

Is that the only reason? I was under the impression it was a copyright thing...

Which got me wondering, why/how do NeoLemmix and SuperLemmini carry on the way they do if copyright is a concern?

[RubiX]

Ok, so I spent hours over the past days remaking the Lemmings & Oh No! More Lemmings 2player maps in Lix.
I mentioned the reasons on another thread,  its mainly about true nostalgia in the original maps and also in the original style of 2man playability.

Some of these I was able to use Proxima's work on the lemmings maps that he did with modifications/expansions closer to the originals, and others I completely remade.     
I also re-made the 10 ONML maps from scratch.

So Thanks Proxima for having some of the work that I was able to use.    Especially Pipe dream, that certainly saved me time on that one, you had the main area already sorted out

I wanted to get these remakes as close to the original maps in feel / playability & visual themes/colors as possible.
Also the maps use only the original 8 abilities (only difference being the bomber change in lix)   

Steel is placed only in the original locations also.    Hatch digging was actually a LOT of fun if you could get away with it when there's only 2 players.   Its always a good strategy to be checking on incoming attackers moving towards your entrance,   we always felt it's easily preventative if you are paying attention.  Yet always hillarious if you actually pull it off without the other realizing.   


Ive played against my brother while he was here yesterday, and he feels the maps seem as good to play as the originals,   so i'm glad they have worked out as planned.



I would say the hardest to recreate were:   
Lemmings - Crystal Cavern Mark II        Visually and Playability is not too close to the original unfortunately due to trying to replicate the spiderweb mess.     
Lemmings - Graffiti                               The way I recreated some of the 'graffiti' is obviously visually different, but map plays just as good.
ONML - The only way out                       Trying to find a way to recreate the 'bubble visuals'  that onml has was challenging, but I came up with weird solutions.  Not the best, but its ok.

Also, trying to recreate the 'crystal' look was hard.    As you will notice, I mainly used snow in those maps.   That is all I could think that looked decent enough.


Here's a link to my hidden imgur page showing the remakes next to the originals:

https://imgur.com/a/IpnWTe8


If people are interested in playing these in their 'original nostalgic' way in Lix i'll add a download link for them.    Otherwise this is just something me and my brother really wanted

Rubix

[ccexplore]

Which got me wondering, why/how do NeoLemmix and SuperLemmini carry on the way they do if copyright is a concern?

Oh it's definitely still a concern, just that so far we haven't been forced by the copyright owners to take any corrective actions.

At least for NeoLemmix, at least it's written such that in theory, you can replace any copyrighted graphics (and other materials like sound and music) with all-original graphics instead.  Levels that are relying on copyrighted graphics would of course also need some minor to major remaking.  All the sprites will need to be replaced with something not too recognizably lemming-like.  Even things like fonts based on the original graphics will need replaced.  NeoLemmix website will have to stop offering anything that contains or uses copyrighted materials.  Though nothing prevents you from keeping your own copies of offending files that you already downloaded if you're fine with personally violating the copyright.

Custom levels not based on official levels should be fine once they abandon use of copyrighted graphics.  Unfortunately, things like Redux, to say nothing of the official conversions, likely may fall under derivative work of the original levels and may stlll be problematic.

Of course, more typically the copyright holder, being a large corporation, can do the usual "cease and desist" and threaten legal action, typically forcing a small party like us to stop distributing the game altogether even if there exists a way out that would pass all the legal requirements of not making use of copyrighted materials.  Sadly we can't afford to go to court with them to sort things out more in our favor, and the corporations know this and will often take advantage of it to force the most draconian measures on us (eg. stop distributing the game altogether).

Anyway, I'm not a lawyer so take anything I say above with a grain of salt.  But NeoLemmix and SuperLemmini are very much not in the clear.  At the same time, large corporations don't typically waste time going after a party unless they anticipate either direct monetary loss (eg. they are selling or planning to sell a new Lemmings game and can argue NeoLemmix and SuperLemmini as competing games) or brand confusion (eg. people confusing the clone of the game as official games, and in the process it harms the brand).  And if we're being honest, the community is just too small right now for corporations to take notice.

So I feel good that we can continue carrying on for a while (after all, both had been around for years already), but technically we're just biding on continual luck.

[WillLem]

eg. they are selling or planning to sell a new Lemmings game and can argue NeoLemmix and SuperLemmini as competing games) or brand confusion (eg. people confusing the clone of the game as official games, and in the process it harms the brand)

If Sony rereleased the back catalog, remastered for PC with modern graphics but the same physics and gameplay, that would be awesome. Or if they rebooted it with new levels, new skills, that too would be great if they had the right team of people working on it.

But such ideas don't seem forthcoming. And in the meantime, both NeoLemmix and SuperLemmini are better than anything Sony is doing with the franchise, by far. I don't think they're harming the brand at all, even if I occasionally disagree with the odd thing. No game is perfect. Well, apart from SSX 3 - that is perfect!

But seriously, even my favourite video game of all time (New Super Mario Bros. 2) doesn't have Princess Peach as a playable character, and therefore isn't perfect.

[Simon]

No, Lix doesn't load Lemmings 1 nor Lemmings 2 terrain. It doesn't load Lemmings 1 .lvl maps either.

This always felt like too much extra work to port.

Is that the only reason? I was under the impression it was a copyright thing...

Having code in program X that loads L1/L2 assets is fine, as long as X's code came from reverse engineering, not from copying L1/L2 source code. This is clean room design.

Copyright demands that X not contain the assets themselves, such as L1/L2 levels or tilesets or close deviations of them.

Patents may prevent reverse engineering, but Lemmings isn't patented. Patent laws are even nastier than copyright laws, and I know less about them.

Copyright law is muddy, is convoluted, differs by country, and is heavily lobbied. There was plenty of publicity and advertizing in the 90's and 00's against copyright violation, suggesting that violating copyright is morally bad.

Still, violating copyright has executive downsides only when the other party sues, which is a risk for both sides, or when they cease-and-desist the violating project. A violating project might gamble that the copyright holder never does anything. But I found that too risky for my hobby, and thus Lix is fully free-and-open-source.

-- Simon

[Danielc]

Ok, so I spent hours over the past days remaking the Lemmings & Oh No! More Lemmings 2player maps in Lix.
I mentioned the reasons on another thread,  its mainly about true nostalgia in the original maps and also in the original style of 2man playability.

Some of these I was able to use Proxima's work on the lemmings maps that he did with modifications/expansions closer to the originals, and others I completely remade.     
I also re-made the 10 ONML maps from scratch.

So Thanks Proxima for having some of the work that I was able to use.    Especially Pipe dream, that certainly saved me time on that one, you had the main area already sorted out

I wanted to get these remakes as close to the original maps in feel / playability & visual themes/colors as possible.
Also the maps use only the original 8 abilities (only difference being the bomber change in lix)   

Steel is placed only in the original locations also.    Hatch digging was actually a LOT of fun if you could get away with it when there's only 2 players.   Its always a good strategy to be checking on incoming attackers moving towards your entrance,   we always felt it's easily preventative if you are paying attention.  Yet always hillarious if you actually pull it off without the other realizing.   


Ive played against my brother while he was here yesterday, and he feels the maps seem as good to play as the originals,   so i'm glad they have worked out as planned.



I would say the hardest to recreate were:   
Lemmings - Crystal Cavern Mark II        Visually and Playability is not too close to the original unfortunately due to trying to replicate the spiderweb mess.     
Lemmings - Graffiti                               The way I recreated some of the 'graffiti' is obviously visually different, but map plays just as good.
ONML - The only way out                       Trying to find a way to recreate the 'bubble visuals'  that onml has was challenging, but I came up with weird solutions.  Not the best, but its ok.

Also, trying to recreate the 'crystal' look was hard.    As you will notice, I mainly used snow in those maps.   That is all I could think that looked decent enough.


Here's a link to my hidden imgur page showing the remakes next to the originals:

https://imgur.com/a/IpnWTe8


If people are interested in playing these in their 'original nostalgic' way in Lix i'll add a download link for them.    Otherwise this is just something me and my brother really wanted

Rubix

Funny I came across your awesome work here as I was about to request porting of the original Lemmings levels myself, though I suppose that's another story

I really appreciate the work you've put into recreating these levels! I'd rather play these on Lix than on the same machine via a DOS Emulator, and I've heard there's sound issues with those also. For Single Player, I'd also recommend "Lemmins" which is a very nice re-creation of Lemmings done in Blitz: https://archive.org/details/Lemmings_Lemmins_Blitz_Lemmings

I'd like some download links to your recreations please, I'd love to play the original 2-player levels  as I don't think I ever did back in the day!

[Simon]

Welcome to the forums!

Yes, Rubix should attach his 2-player L1-to-Lix conversions here.

-- Simon

[RubiX]

Ok, here are my recent remakes attached in a zip:

Lemmings Amiga 2 player remakes
ONML Amiga 2 player remakes

[RubiX]

DanielC - I'm up for playing 2 player on them some time if you need to find someone to play against! 

[grams88]

I've added a bit to the lemmings wiki twoplayer levels a while back to spice them up as I know them quite well from the past. I always mentioned about tactics you could use for the levels as well. All 30 twoplayer levels has additional information once you click on each level.

https://lemmings.fandom.com/wiki/Lemmings_two-player

https://lemmings.fandom.com/wiki/Oh_No!_More_Lemmings_two_player

It probably still needs a bit of tidying up. I decided to do that as it gives you the general idea behind each of the levels and makes the old two player levels popular again. The twoplayer levels are of good quality in the original and oh no, it's always good to keep popular and remake as well.