[DISC][PLAYER] The future of official game conversions

[WillLem]

N.B. Greyed-out text has already been discussed and resolved, and the poll updated accordingly.

The reason for this poll is that Namida has explicitly stated that he no longer wishes to maintain the existing NXLV conversions of Lemmings, Oh No! More Lemmings and the other original games as "official".

From now on, Lemmings Redux will be treated as the "official" NeoLemmix version of the original levels, and it has been proposed that all other versions will be demoted to "unofficial" status. To emphasise this, Redux will be shipped along with NeoLemmix from now on. I actually think providing a pack is a good idea, as it means players have something to play immediately upon downloading NeoLemmix, which was not the case previously, and Redux is indeed a decent enough pack to be chosen for this purpose. However, this needn't affect the original levels themselves.

Whilst there is nothing stopping anyone producing their own NXLV conversions of these levels and redistributing them to the community, the danger here is that we'll end up with any number of conversions of these games, none of which are regarded as official. Personally, I don't like this idea as it could get messy.

I think that we should have a conversion of the original games which people agree represents them as they were intended, for better or worse. I have begun work on restoring the levels and compiling them into packs (hopefully for inclusion on this page).

EDIT: Following the results of the polls, I've now started this topic for the proposed restoration project. Please feel free to get involved if you're interested.

[IchoTolot]

Just make a true to the the original pack. Make a topic about it and maintain it.

The best conversions will gain the most popularity. I highly doubt that there will be many anway so this won't get messy.

I don't really see the importance of the "official" tag. Nothing here is truly official anyway.

So I would go with option 3.

Personally it would even tend to option 4, but I 100% see the need for the original levels being present for other users - even if things like Lemmix exists which is 100% true to DOS.

[Proxima]

None of the above, although my view is closest to option 3. Also, I'm sorry if I spoke too harshly yesterday.

From my point of view as Challenges moderator, it is important that we have a single accepted version of the original levels for use in challenges, and I'm happy to collaborate with WillLem in producing these. My only reasons for not straight-up accepting WillLem's version are (1) I haven't seen them yet, so I don't know if I will agree with the specific decisions WillLem has made such as precisely how much to trim the empty space on the sides of levels -- but if there is disagreement, I'm happy to discuss it with WillLem, and the community if necessary, rather than just editing the levels to my own whim; (2) I know that WillLem and I disagree over the question of moss on steel, which I believe must be removed in NL versions to preserve the gameplay rather than preserving the appearance (and to serve as a reminder to newcomers that decorative moss on steel isn't accepted in NL, for better or worse).

Anyone who wants to play the original levels will be able to play the Challenges version or the unedited levels (when we make these available), or make their own edits. That's not a problem.

Regarding some "fan favourite" levels being left out of Redux: as soon as namida made this announcement, I posted in the Redux topic asking whether the announcement has changed anyone's mind about the size and level selection of the pack. If you want to propose any changes, please do this in the Redux topic while the question is still open.

Regarding "official" status of the conversions, that's up to namida, and from looking over the discord discussion, it seems that he's made up his mind on this. For my part, I think it's a reasonable decision; NL is clearly a successor of the original games, but a distant one, with large differences in mechanics and overall feel of the game. We can never really play the original levels "as they were intended" in NL; a few levels used hidden exits, intentionally precise placement as an execution challenge, timed bombers, and so forth. I think having a conversion pack available, but not calling it "official", may be the best compromise.

As for the website, I like having the level images easily available to look through or link to, and it would be great if we had something like that for more packs, not just the original levels and namida's packs -- but obviously that would require someone to go to the effort of making and uploading the images. So I don't know what the solution is here.

[WillLem]

I'm sorry if I spoke too harshly yesterday.

That's OK, no worries.

From my point of view as Challenges moderator, it is important that we have a single accepted version of the original levels for use in challenges, and I'm happy to collaborate with WillLem in producing these
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I think having a conversion pack available, but not calling it "official", may be the best compromise.

OK, I can agree on this. But, where would this conversion be hosted? It would be great if they could be pinned to the Levels topic board for easy reference/access - we don't necessarily need to label it "official", but we can at least make it prominent and accessible.

I know that WillLem and I disagree over the question of moss on steel, which I believe must be removed in NL versions to preserve the gameplay rather than preserving the appearance...
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We can never really play the original levels "as they were intended" in NL; a few levels used hidden exits, intentionally precise placement as an execution challenge, timed bombers, and so forth.

There's a contradiction somewhere here: if you accept that the original levels can't be played as intended anyway, then why modify them visually? Surely it's best to present them as-is, and if gameplay is affected then so be it. That's the beauty of playing the levels on different platforms...

I think it's a good idea for me to make something clear here: I'm not campaigning for the levels to be playable as the originals - I've got an Amiga emulator for that particular experience - I'm literally just wanting them to be graphically identical to the originals, with NeoLemmix gameplay.

So, that includes all decorative terrain/objects, no matter how pointless they may seem, and all moss on steel present and in its original position. It seems likely that most people who are looking to play the original levels will want to see them as intended, even if they can't be played that way.

In any case, I've updated the poll to get some feedback on this particular aspect of the topic instead, as I think that trying to get any version to be "official" does seem somewhat pointless, as Icho pointed out.

[Proxima]

There's a contradiction somewhere here: if you accept that the original levels can't be played as intended anyway, then why modify them visually? Surely it's best to present them as-is, and if gameplay is affected then so be it. That's the beauty of playing the levels on different platforms...

Because no-one ever intended for the moss on steel to be destructible. Yes, I know the original developers didn't intend their levels to be played with untimed bombers either, but there it's just a difference in gameplay mechanics; you can still play "Bomboozal" with untimed bombers and it's a different experience but the same level. Playing "They just keep on coming" with destructible moss is not playing the same level in my eyes, because terrain pixels have been changed from indestructibe to destructible. That's a difference in the way NL reads the level data, and so to keep the level authentic, we have to change the level data to something that NL will read correctly.

As I've said before, the purpose of the Challenges board is twofold -- to have fun challenging each other and solving each other's challenges; and also to keep records of the best possible results achievable on various challenges. For that purpose, the levels need to be authentic.

So, I'm fine with you releasing a version with no changes at all -- I even think it's a good idea, for the purpose of having a base version for people to work from when making edits (to the pack as a whole, or making individual levels based on an original). But for the Challenges board, it's important to me to have a version with no moss on steel, and this will be the only version we keep records for.

[WillLem]

As I've said before, the purpose of the Challenges board is twofold -- to have fun challenging each other and solving each other's challenges; and also to keep records of the best possible results achievable on various challenges. For that purpose, the levels need to be authentic.

This is absurd: on what basis are the levels "authentic" if they're being edited to suit the engine?

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for the idea of having a single pack from which to derive challenge results, and treat as "official", but since it's been decided that Redux is the official NeoLemmix pack, and since it's already been edited to NL specifications, then I'd suggest looking to that pack for use as the official NeoLemmix Challenges pack.

Furthermore, it almost doesn't make sense to both treat Redux as official, claim that it's the perfect pack to enjoy the original game on the NeoLemmix platform, and then use an entirely different pack for official Challenges - it sends out very mixed and confusing messages.

Anyway, I'm doing as has been suggested and I've created a new post for the restoration project, so hopefully this can serve as an unedited version available as a pack to simply play, or make levels from, as suggested. If people want to use it for Challenges, I won't discourage that, but nor will I try to get people to see that pack as any sort of "official Challenge pack". I agree that it's probably not appropriate to do so since the gameplay of the levels is so extensively affected by the NeoLemmix engine, and I'd again suggest that Redux is best for that particular purpose in a NeoLemmix context.

[namida]

This is absurd: on what basis are the levels "authentic" if they're being edited to suit the engine?

The second these levels are loaded into NL, they're to some extent edited to suit the engine. The steel areas are gone - instead, terrain pieces directly have the property of being (or not being) steel. Any fake objects are gone - or alternatively, they're made non-fake. The exit and exit top objects are removed, and replaced with a single combined object that just has the same look as the original one. Padding spaces at the start or end of the title are gone.

Even if all you care is if it "looks" the same, one-way arrows are recolored and have outlines. Traps have secondary animations.

There is no standard by which you can take the exact official version of the level and play it in NL. Modifications will always be needed, it's just a matter of choosing the arbitrary point at which you draw the line, and if that's far enough from the original, what changes you make prior to hitting said line.

Even "whatever the conversion spits out, no further changes" is slightly arbitrary, albeit using a basis that can be consistently reproduced.

If you feel that "edited to suit the engine" destroys their authentic status, then that's a reason not to have the conversion: Because it can never be authentic.

[Proxima]

This is absurd: on what basis are the levels "authentic" if they're being edited to suit the engine?

As I said: because the engine reads the level data differently from how the original games did.

To take a separate example, since the moss-on-steel issue is the cause of heated feelings at the moment: on 3-hatch levels like "Triple Trouble", original Lemmings would spawn the lemmings in ABCBABCB order. NeoLemmix, reading exactly the same level data, will spawn the lemmings in ABCABC order. So, which is more authentic -- preserving the level data or preserving the underlying gameplay?

And I'm not asking this because I think there's one and only one right answer. It's a judgement call in every single case. But at least in the case of moss on steel, I feel very strongly that it's more important to preserve the gameplay (those pixels were intended to be indestructible). If we can't agree on this, that's okay; it just means a little bit more work and two different versions of the levelpack. Not a huge deal.

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for the idea of having a single pack from which to derive challenge results, and treat as "official", but since it's been decided that Redux is the official NeoLemmix pack, and since it's already been edited to NL specifications, then I'd suggest looking to that pack for use as the official NeoLemmix Challenges pack.

Furthermore, it almost doesn't make sense to both treat Redux as official, claim that it's the perfect pack to enjoy the original game on the NeoLemmix platform, and then use an entirely different pack for official Challenges - it sends out very mixed and confusing messages.

From the point of view of challenges, Redux and the original levels are separate packs, and neither is "official" (which has no meaning in this context). I am interested in maintaining a version of the original levels, both because I am interested in results from levels that aren't included in Redux, and for the sake of the "original levels with new skills" challenge.

[WillLem]

Traps have secondary animations.

I'm considering making custom unanimated versions as part of the project - mainly for those that are meant to be hidden. Having the visible traps animated is, IMHO, definitely an improvement.

If you feel that "edited to suit the engine" destroys their authentic status, then that's a reason not to have the conversion: Because it can never be authentic.

I agree, and your line of reasoning has led me to question my motivations for doing this... I think it is purely so that as much of the "look" of the original game is preserved as possible. If I have to be completely honest, it's a mixture of preference, nostalgia, and almost a sense of protectiveness over the game I grew up with. That last one might seem a bit wierd, but I'd be lying if I denied the presence of that particular motivation. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

I also fully acknowledge that authenticity is relative: I was only calling Proxima out on it because he stated that as the reason for wanting moss to be removed from steel. However, doing so compromises the visual authenticity. So, I guess it comes down to priorities - in this case, Proxima seems to be prioritising the authenticity of the level's intended solution, whereas I'm prioritising the authenticity of the visual design.

which is more authentic -- preserving the level data or preserving the underlying gameplay?

It's an interesting question, and not one I can answer easily to be honest. I'd say that, since the underlying gameplay is always compromised by virtue of it being played on NeoLemmix, it makes more sense to go with preserving the level data, and embracing the resulting differences in gameplay.

From the point of view of challenges, Redux and the original levels are separate packs, and neither is "official" (which has no meaning in this context). I am interested in maintaining a version of the original levels, both because I am interested in results from levels that aren't included in Redux, and for the sake of the "original levels with new skills" challenge.

This seems like a bit of a cake-and-penny situation. If you want a version of the original levels to use for challenges, I'd say either go with one which has been carefully edited to be suitable for use in NeoLemmix (i.e. Redux), OR a version which has as few edits to the original layout/data as possible. Why use a sort of "halfway" version? It just seems to add further absurdity to the situation, and potentially renders the results meaningless.

That said, I am happy for the "restored" version not to be accepted as official for challenges - that's not why I'm making it. And besides, people can make challenges for whatever packs they want anyway. I guess I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind your decision to create a separate pack for challenges, particularly if it means having yet another version of the original levels!

[Proxima]

This seems like a bit of a cake-and-penny situation.

I'm not familiar with the expression.

If you want a version of the original levels to use for challenges, I'd say either go with one which has been carefully edited to be suitable for use in NeoLemmix (i.e. Redux)

Redux does not contain all the original levels.

OR a version which has as few edits to the original layout/data as possible. Why use a sort of "halfway" version? It just seems to add further absurdity to the situation, and potentially renders the results meaningless.

The results are meaningful because they represent the best possible (or the best achieved) on a particular version of a particular pack. It doesn't matter what that pack is. I think it's important to decide on a single version because I don't want the situation where we have to track results for multiple very-similar-but-not-identical packs, nor the situation where some players find a challenge impossible because they are on the wrong version.

Why use a version with some edits? Because that feels right to me. The terrain under the moss was intended to be indestructible.

[ccexplore]

I think it's important to decide on a single version because I don't want the situation where we have to track results for multiple very-similar-but-not-identical packs, nor the situation where some players find a challenge impossible because they are on the wrong version.

But can you really prevent other people from putting out their own versions of same level anyway?  Seems like for challenge thread purposes we may want to simply consider a version with a few reasonable edits.  We can always reject any results not done on the challenge-approved version, and tell people to start their own threads if they really must present solutions based on other versions.

We already kind of have two versions of some levels anyway.  Sure, Redux is much more substantial edits so there's much less confusion, but as I recall, the level titles at least still remain the same, so someone must at least be careful not to upload a solution for Redux as a solution to a more direct conversion, and vice versa.

I'm almost of the mind that maybe we can create an "extra" rank or similar in the "conversion packs", for the levels that end up having reasonable small edits, the extra rank containing all the random alternate version that don't have such edits and therefore look slightly closer to the original, but may play a bit too differently from the original due to things like moss on steel.  The title can be modified to prefix with "Extra" or whatever so there's no confusion with the other version left under the original ranks under the original title.  The players will understand the oddball nature of this rank and can do as they see fit (eg. ignore it altogether, or play them anyway just for the heck of it).

Or, we can go the other direction altogether and make up for the missing levels via a second, unofficial "Redux Extras" or "Redux Rejects" pack.  Then we can still do challenges on the levels not represented in Redux, and the levels for the Rejects pack can be edited as little or as much as needed to make sense from a solutions perspective.  The separate, still unofficial "more direct conversion" pack can be nothing more than just that, a no-frills conversion without any consideration of how the resulting levels play out in NeoLemmix.

[Proxima]

But can you really prevent other people from putting out their own versions of same level anyway?

No -- but I don't remember saying that I wanted to I just want to make sure that there is, as you say, a "challenge-approved" version of the original levels so that everyone posting results is on the same page.

[Dullstar]

I agree that the official game conversions should be maintained, but I question why we are now considering redoing them. There are already official game conversions - why not just maintain those?

Some of the levels apparently had some conversion issues, but they're already solved.

Yes, there are differences in the NeoLemmix versions as a result of the engine changes NeoLemmix makes. But if those are an issue, you can still play vanilla Lemmix.

[WillLem]

Why use a version with some edits? Because that feels right to me. The terrain under the moss was intended to be indestructible.

Bombers were intended to be timed.

And I know, I know, untimed bombers don't affect the solution. My issue here is more with the fact that you're using designers' intentions as a reason to back this up this decision, but happily ignoring designers' intentions elsewhere. It just doesn't fly.

You can simply just say "the entire steel area needs to be indestructible because we've decided steel areas should be made up of entirely indestructible elements", and that's reason enough.

I'm almost of the mind that maybe we can create an "extra" rank or similar in the "conversion packs", for the levels that end up having reasonable small edits, the extra rank containing all the random alternate version that don't have such edits and therefore look slightly closer to the original, but may play a bit too differently from the original due to things like moss on steel.  The title can be modified to prefix with "Extra" or whatever so there's no confusion with the other version left under the original ranks under the original title.  The players will understand the oddball nature of this rank and can do as they see fit

This is a good idea! I'm very much in favour of keeping the conversions to just the one pack, so I'd be willing to make this compromise if others agree. If not, I have decided to go ahead and do my own conversions anyway, as the bulk of the work for this has already been done. In terms of what happens regarding these packs for challenges etc, well - que sera, sera.

I agree that the official game conversions should be maintained, but I question why we are now considering redoing them. There are already official game conversions - why not just maintain those?

Because they have been edited to not include decorative terrain. The idea with the restoration project is to present the levels exactly as they are when extracted as LVLs from the Amiga version, and then convert them to NXLV with a minimum of tidying up - mainly removing the empty space.

Yes, there are differences in the NeoLemmix versions as a result of the engine changes NeoLemmix makes. But if those are an issue, you can still play vanilla Lemmix.

To be honest, I enjoy playing the levels in NeoLemmix with it's various differences & conveniences - it makes a nice change from playing Lemmings on the emulator and makes finding new solutions easier and much quicker.

This project isn't about trying to replicate the original game, it's simply a full graphical restoration of the levels. The fact that NeoLemmix interprets them differently is part of the fun of porting them!

[WillLem]

Some quick final thoughts on this topic:

I've almost finished making Amiga Lemmings, which is essentially a converting-to-NXLV and minimal tidying up of the original Lemmings and Oh No! LVLs extracted directly from the Amiga platform.

These can serve as (at least graphically) authentic versions of the levels which people can use for remixes, or simply enjoy an experience that's as visually close to playing the levels on the Amiga as you can get in NeoLemmix (the custom skill panel will help with this aesthetic as well!).

Meanwhile, I think we all want versions of the original levels that are widely recognised as "NeoLemmix official", (albeit unofficially ), for use in challenges and to remain on the official conversions page for easy access.

Originally, I did offer to be the one maintaining such versions, but the more I think about it the more I realise I'm probably not the best person to do this given that I'm not exactly a "NeoLemmixer" when it comes to Lemmings gameplay philosophy. I also realise that Amiga versions of the levels aren't compatible with this philosophy, and therefore my compilation isn't the best one to use for this purpose.

So, I just wanted it to be clear that I'm more than happy to see Proxima take the reigns with this, but of course my offer of help with the task still stands should it ever be needed.

I'd also put ericderkovits forward as a Forum member whose attention to detail and enthusiasm for the original games makes him an ideal person to work with on this as well.

So, with that, I'm signing off my involvement in this topic. I'll release Amiga Lemmings soon in the spirit of finishing projects I've started, and I'll make it very clear that they aren't meant to be NeoLemmix-approved versions of the levels, simply direct conversions with restored graphics.

Thanks,

WillLem