[SUG][PLAYER] Ability to turn skill shadows on and off

[WillLem]

I still think if this is going to happen a checkbox is the way to go.

Both would be best, of course, but if I had to choose I'd much rather have it as a Hotkey, that way it's accessible during play. The problem with a checkbox is that if you're playing a level that you need to use skill shadows on, you have to save the replay, exit the level, change the option, then go back in and resume from the replay.

If it could simply be toggled on/off, and (better yet) incidentally applied by holding down a key (like you can with CPM), that would be ideal.

[WillLem]

There is, of course, one other thing to take into account here: Namida is looking at working towards a final version of NeoLemmix.

Surely it would be better for the final version to have this option, particularly if it isn't too difficult to implement and is unlikely to create any actual problems.

[Dullstar]

I agree with Icho that this feature doesn't fit with the NeoLemmix philosophy and is potentially dangerous:

But if an option comes it needs a BIG warning message under it that states custom levels are usually designed with skill shadows active. Even the intro pack will assume the player as them always on, I won't make any extra considerations for this. [emphasis added]

I've posted about this in another topic, but I think it deserves reiterating here:

Players using the option to disable skill shadows would need to change these options when playing packs designed with them in mind, since otherwise the levels will be significantly harder than their developers intended. The player should not have to tweak their options to play certain content, and level designers shouldn't have to account for the player's options when designing the level. If the player's options have to be considered in the level design, it probably shouldn't be an option in the first place.

A hold-to-activate hotkey setting can mitigate this, but is still a risky choice compared to simply not giving the option at all, particularly if the hotkey doesn't have a default setting. Some players might disable the skill shadows, play some content that doesn't really need them, and then forget about the option's existence by the time they encounter a level that requires it.

My levels are designed and tested with NeoLemmix's player assist features in mind. They won't necessarily go out of their way to require these features be used, but they are not tested for execution difficulty (or even basic solvability) without these features.



As far as the hotkey versus no hotkey debate:

I think a hotkey to disable skill shadows is a bad idea; my reasoning is basically identical to Icho's:

It's just because new players may hit it unwillingly by accident and then just struggle through the game with no explanation what happened. A hotkey for selecting a skill/framestep has much lesser impact and often they don't change things permanently until repessed.

Then I would rather take the extra checkbox in the options menu. The hotkey would be the far more dangerous option and can potentionaly harm a new players experience when it gets hit by accident and the player is unsure which button they hit.

Again, I still think the option is not needed, but if it is to be implemented the checkbox is the way to go.

Then it's a very hidden option which is also bad. I still think if this is going to happen a checkbox is the way to go.

If we were to include a menu option, a hotkey like with Clear Physics to temporarily show them would be useful. But, when they are enabled, the hotkey should do nothing, as for players who don't go out of their way to disable skill shadows in the menu, this behavior is never desirable. The opposite, however, is potentially useful and would deserve a default setting (I'm envisioning this as a hotkey to be held down).

[Proxima]

I think both of you are overstating how "difficult" levels become without skill shadows. More laborious, yes, but not really more difficult. We were without skill shadows for years and no-one complained or thought of them as a feature we should have; they only came about by accident when Arty was arguing for timed bombers by saying "We don't have execution aids for the other skills", and we all figuratively looked at each other and said "Great idea!"

Most skills are still relatively easy to place accurately (because another part of NL philosophy is that high precision should be avoided where possible); for the more problematic cases such as long bridges or miners, the skill of estimating them can be learned; any time the player gets it wrong, it's still easy to rewind and try again; and this is something the player will have to do a lot even with skill shadows, so it doesn't feel like a huge change.

[mantha16]

I think both of you are overstating how "difficult" levels become without skill shadows. More laborious, yes, but not really more difficult. We were without skill shadows for years and no-one complained or thought of them as a feature we should have;

Not all of us have played for years so I don't think thats relevant.  I didn't like it when I played lix partially because of no skill shadows.  Not having them in NL would spoil my enjoyment of the game so make it optional then everyone has the choice would be my view

[WillLem]

The player should not have to tweak their options to play certain content, and level designers shouldn't have to account for the player's options when designing the level.

That's why I think it should be a hotkey that's accessible at any time rather than a menu option.

Some players might disable the skill shadows, play some content that doesn't really need them, and then forget about the option's existence by the time they encounter a level that requires it.

Not a problem: if players disable Skill Shadows in the first place, it's because they prefer to play with them off. They are likely to be skilled enough to make it through such a level with or without them.

I agree with Proxima that the difficulty of the game without Skill Shadows is being overstated here. Skills Shadows are meant to be an assistive tool, not a required/mandatory feature: if a pack cannot be played without them, then that's the fault of the pack, not the player or the option.

Also, again - this is why I'm suggesting it be implemented as a hotkey, so it's always accessible in-game, even to players who prefer to have the Skill Shadows switched off.

I think a hotkey to disable skill shadows is a bad idea; my reasoning is basically identical to Icho's:

It's just because new players may hit it unwillingly by accident and then just struggle through the game with no explanation what happened.

I'm now saying this for the third time, and I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer:

"it could be that there is no default Hotkey assigned for Skill Shadows, so players must go into the F3 menu and customise one themselves. This would ensure that players know which key toggles the Skill Shadows on and off, and eliminates the problem of a player accidentally toggling them off when they don't want to (and then not being able to switch them back on)."

If we were to include a menu option, a hotkey like with Clear Physics to temporarily show them would be useful. But, when they are enabled, the hotkey should do nothing, as for players who don't go out of their way to disable skill shadows in the menu, this behavior is never desirable. The opposite, however, is potentially useful and would deserve a default setting (I'm envisioning this as a hotkey to be held down).

Yes, very much agreed! This is a good idea, and would likely keep everyone happy on both sides of the debate.

Essentially, what I'm suggesting is that Skill Shadows be given the same status/usage as Clear Physics Mode - it's there when you need it, but you can ignore it if you want to. The moment a level requires either of these features in order to be possible, then it's the fault of the design; people have been making that very clear to me since I joined the forums!

[Dullstar]

I think the argument that levels shouldn't require skill shadows was true at one time, but I don't feel that is the case anymore because we have skill shadows. When they weren't a feature at all, you really needed to make sure that skill assignments weren't overly precise. Now that they are present, levels can get away with these precise assignments without it being an issue, because the skill shadows let you see exactly how assigning on a particular frame will play out, so it becomes less about how difficult it is to eyeball where the skill should go and more about how difficult it is to find a skill shadow that does what you want.

[WillLem]

When they weren't a feature at all, you really needed to make sure that skill assignments weren't overly precise. Now that they are present, levels can get away with these precise assignments without it being an issue

In a recent discussion about hidden objects, I made the argument that Clear Physics Mode means that hidden stuff is no longer an issue: whilst this may be true, the community still (mostly) considers hidden objects to be a bad design choice; not only does CPM make hidden stuff irrelevant, but having to use it on every level to check for hidden objects isn't something any player wants to do. I've now discontinued the practice of hiding stuff, having been convinced by these discussions that hiding objects is a bad design choice because of CPM, not in spite of it.

The point being that just because a player assist tool makes something easier or less of a problem doesn't mean that levels should contain those elements. Whether Skill Shadows become optional or not, it's still considered bad level design to make overly precise levels - I've been criticised for this a number of times.

So, in the same way that you wouldn't play with Clear Physics Mode permanently enabled just in case you happen upon a level with a hidden exit, Skill Shadows shouldn't be kept permanently enabled just in case you happen upon a level requiring precise skill application.

Skill Shadows are an assistive feature, and for that reason alone ought to be optional.

[namida]

How many of the cases of precision you speak of were ones that skill shadows can directly help with, though? In fact, I recall one of them was argued against specifically because the distance of a fall involved made it impossible to use any kind of assist features to help measure it (although I would maintain that even without that, while it would be less frustrating, the particular case would still not have added anything of value to the level) and thus it ended up becoming either a guessing game, or a matter of "take screenshots and measure externally using an image editor".

[Dullstar]

It's not really the same as CPM and hidden objects: Precise assignments are usually obvious once you've got an idea of what the solution might be, but take a few attempts to get the alignment right (when not using skill shadows).

It's not too difficult to eyeball approximately where a precise assignment needs to go, and once you've got a lemming there, with skill shadows, a few frames of framestepping while hovering over the lemming will find the correct placement pretty quickly. If the level already demands lots of framestepping, it doesn't make things much harder to also have a few semi-precise assignments when skill shadows are available.

From a design perspective, I certainly wouldn't suggest going out of your way to make a precise assignment required, and if the change required to make one less precise is trivial, it's certainly wise. Level designers should be encouraged to use the skill shadows, too, because the reason they help line up precise assignments can also help identify spots where a precise assignment can cause a different result than the one the designer intended. One set-up I've encountered several times is a basher continuing further than expected if it's assigned in juuuust the right spot. It's easy to fix when it happens, but if you don't notice it...

They can also help line up certain types of interactions when the game mechanics themselves demand some degree of precision to make a certain trick work at all.



For example, in the above level (my contest 19 submission, Shimmier Sort), there is a part where

Spoiler

in order to reach the top of the level, a climber uses a bomber crater in the left wall as a place to start a platformer, which must line up with the adjacent platform such that it at most one pixel from flush with the bottom edge of the adjacent platform, so that a shimmier can continue across the platform. It also can't be placed one the bottom pixel of the bomber crater, or the shimmier wouldn't be able to get on top. If I could remove the precision without removing the trick, I would, but I wanted to keep the trick and couldn't think of a way to make it less precise. Skill shadows make lining this up much easier.

As I mentioned, if someone turns off the skill shadows early on, by the time they need them, they may forget the option is there, particularly if it's buried away in the hotkeys menu.

[WillLem]

How many of the cases of precision you speak of were ones that skill shadows can directly help with, though?

My point was more that Skill Shadows being able to help with precision isn't a reason to have precision in a level (i.e. whether or not they can directly help with said precision), just like CPM being able to help with hidden objects isn't a reason to have hidden objects in a level.

Also, since CPM is optional (in the sense that you can turn it on and off when needed), so should Skill Shadows be. EDIT: I'd also compare Skill Shadows to the Splat Ruler: both tend to be most useful whilst the game is paused, so accessing them via a Hotkey seems the best way to implement them.

with skill shadows, a few frames of framestepping while hovering over the lemming will find the correct placement pretty quickly
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Level designers should be encouraged to use the skill shadows, too, because the reason they help line up precise assignments can also help identify spots where a precise assignment can cause a different result than the one the designer intended.
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They can also help line up certain types of interactions when the game mechanics themselves demand some degree of precision to make a certain trick work at all.

I agree that Skill Shadows are useful, and time-saving, especially when combined with Framestepping. I also agree that Skill Shadows are remarkably helpful when it comes to finding and preventing backroutes. I also agree that there's no better way to precisely judge an intended trick.

However, I still think the player should have some degree of control over when they're visible, ideally via a Hotkey so they're always accessible in-game.

As I mentioned, if someone turns off the skill shadows early on, by the time they need them, they may forget the option is there, particularly if it's buried away in the hotkeys menu.

I'd have to agree that it would be unfortunate for a player to disable Skill Shadows initially (perhaps because they find them off-putting), and then forget they are still there as an option.

However, if a player is bothered enough by them to turn them off, they likely won't forget about them. They're a very unique, noticeable and gameplay-affecting part of the NeoLemmix platform; I think a more likely scenario would be that a player would turn them off initially, then once they feel more comfortable that they are able to control their experience, they'd probably turn them back on to see what it's like to play with them enabled, then make the choice to either keep them on or switch them off. By this point, they're very unlikely to forget that they exist as an option.

That said, after discussion/consideration I now believe that making Skill Shadows either permanently enabled (default) or hold-to-assign via a Hotkey (like the Splat Ruler) would likely be the best solution to all scenarios, rather than offering the option to turn them off altogether.

[WillLem]

I feel this deserves a separate post: the discussion has brought about what I feel is the best solution to everyone's wishes and concerns, which is this:

Rather than providing the option to permanently disable Skill Shadows, make the F3 menu options thus:

Permanently enabled: Skill Shadows will always function as they do currently, i.e by hovering the cursor over the lemming.
Hotkey-only*: Skill Shadows will only function when hovering the cursor over the lemming and pressing a Hotkey (similar to the Splat Ruler) - if it could also be made so that the Hotkey must be user-assigned, then the player would be less likely to forget about it.

So - to make it clear - there would be no way to turn Skill Shadows OFF, and the Hotkey would function as a hold-to-assign rather than a toggle that can be accidentally pressed.

This would mean that players cannot disable them altogether and then forget about them, and would mean that anyone who'd prefer them to be assignable via Hotkey-only would likely create a Hotkey for them that they'll remember, and then use them whenever they need to.

[namida]

Put a new poll up. Just to be clear: this poll is about what you personally would like to use, not about what you think is an ideal compromise for everyone. A compromise can be figured out later if one is needed.

[WillLem]

If all 5 of these options were possible, I'd mainly use toggle on/off. However, always off but available by holding a hotkey would also be good, and would be more consistent with other player-assist tools such as CPM, splat height ruler and the new projection shadow.

Quick comment regarding the poll, just seems worth mentioning: it appears that option 1 is the most popular at the moment, but this doesn't necessarily indicate that the people who've chosen this wouldn't want the option to turn the Skill Shadows off occasionally. The previous poll suggested that some people would be interested in having this option.

I would likely have Skill Shadows on most of the time as well; this whole topic (and indeed my entire campaign regarding this) has really been about presenting it as optional.

[namida]

Okay, so it looks like to me, most people would prefer the status quo where shadows are simply always on. However, there was interest in having the option previously, so perhaps most of these people haven't voted in the new poll yet? The only vote other than "always on" here goes to having a hotkey to toggle them - if I were to accomodate this, this would in practice mean there's a config menu option, but like with music / sound, it can be toggled with a hotkey. There doesn't seem to be much direct interest in a hold-to-view (or hold-to-hide) hotkey, other than as a general "this would be nice" from someone who wouldn't use it as their primary setup.

I feel I'd need a lower bar of demand to implement this, vs what I'd need for a hold-to-view / hold-to-hide setup. The latter is more work to implement than the former. This doesn't mean a single user is enough for me to do it, but I'm aware there are likely others who just haven't voted yet (based on earlier poll results) so I'm leaving this open for now.