[SUG][PLAYER] Ability to turn skill shadows on and off

[WillLem]

EDIT: To make it very clear - my suggestion is that the skill shadows be controlled via a Hotkey, rather than necessarily in the F3 menu. So, the options would be:

Permanently enabled (default)
Permanently disabled by toggling them off with {Hotkey1} in-game (pressing the same Hotkey again would toggle them back on)
Permanently disabled, but temporarily enabled by holding down {Hotkey2}, like you can with CPM

For:

• Since it's a very obvious visual feature, it impacts gameplay directly and should therefore be optional
• It may encourage newcomers to get used to NeoLemmix more quickly by making it less exclusive, giving them the option to make the gameplay more familiar, and get used to skill shadows at their own pace
• It would give players the option to experience custom content in a similar way to classic content, should they wish to try it out this way
• Ultimately, it gives the player full control over their gameplay and experience

Against:

• If introduced as an option, level creators may need to consider this, and this may affect level design (but not necessarily)
• Keeping it non-optional preserves, maintains and promotes the NeoLemmix philosophy of pure-puzzle gameplay by forcing players to get used to the feature, or go elsewhere if they don't like it
• Keeping it non-optional makes the NeoLemmix experience more universally standardised; i.e. all players know that all other players always use skill shadows

[Forestidia86]

It seems reason enough that several people want that option to implement it since the shadows are visually intrusive.

But on a sidenote there are many reasons to let the shadows turned on since they are extremely useful and help avoiding annoying readjustments. They're one of the few features that are dearly missing in Lix (at least singleplayer).

[IchoTolot]

I am still not very fond of the idea as it goes against the NL philosophy and for an original touch we've got the old games.

It's a checkbox that can be avoided, too many just clutter the options menu.

But if an option comes it needs a BIG warning message under it that states custom levels are usually designed with skill shadows active. Even the intro pack will assume the player as them always on, I won't make any extra considerations for this.

[IchoTolot]

It may encourage newcomers to get used to NeoLemmix more quickly by making it less exclusive, giving them the option to make the gameplay more familiar, and get used to skill shadows at their own pace

I would argue that skill shadows making NL way more inclusive as they help and support the player without changing the core gameplay and it is immidiatly clear what they display. They can even support the player with displaying new skills. They don't add anything extra to learn as well.

If introduced as an option, level creators may need to consider this, and this may affect level design

If this would ever be the case I am totally against it. We've got skill shadows and we should assume that players know when to use them. I don't want a mere option limit the design possibilities.

As the default setting would be on though, I think this should not be the case.

Keeping it non-optional preserves, maintains and promotes the NeoLemmix philosophy of pure-puzzle gameplay by forcing players to get used to the feature, or go elsewhere if they don't like it

It would give players the option to experience custom content in a similar way to classic content, should they wish to try it out this way

No skill shadow playing is mostly a side effect of wanting to recreate nostalgia. We've already got that covered with the original games, no need to cover it again and again, especially if NL follows a different philosophy. We don't need countless nostalgia options in the menus.

[WillLem]

But if an option comes it needs a BIG warning message under it that states custom levels are usually designed with skill shadows active.

Maybe something like this could come up as a popup:

"Skill shadows can be toggled on/off via (Hotkey) during play.

Most custom levels are designed with skill shadows active - are you sure you wish to disable this option?

OK / Cancel"

[Proxima]

That sounds creepy, and I'd be pretty unnerved if I were a new user and selecting an option brought up something like that.

Skill shadows on will be the default, and to disable them at all, you'll have to know how to go into options and do so. Surely we can trust that anyone who can do that is also capable of turning them back on if they want.

[WillLem]

there are many reasons to let the shadows turned on since they are extremely useful and help avoiding annoying readjustments. They're one of the few features that are dearly missing in Lix (at least singleplayer).

I'm only suggesting that it be an option, not that skill shadows are removed entirely. I would likely keep them on most of the time, tbh, but it would be good to have the option to occasionally play without them.

I would argue that skill shadows making NL way more inclusive as they help and support the player without changing the core gameplay and it is immidiatly clear what they display. They can even support the player with displaying new skills.

Good point! If implemented, I'm sure that the default option would be for skill shadows to be kept switched on, and I'm sure that most players would choose to have them switched on most of the time (myself included), so these benefits wouldn't disappear if they were made optional.

We've got skill shadows and we should assume that players know when to use them. I don't want a mere option limit the design possibilities.

I think there's been a misunderstanding - I'm not saying that level designers should design with the skill shadow option in mind, I'm just saying that it might affect some people's design decisions, and I've listed this as an argument against including the option.

As the default setting would be on though, I think this should not be the case.

Agreed.

No skill shadow playing is mostly a side effect of wanting to recreate nostalgia. We've already got that covered with the original games, no need to cover it again and again, especially if NL follows a different philosophy. We don't need countless nostalgia options in the menus.

To be quite honest, I don't think it should be a menu option at all, I think it would be better implemented as a Hotkey, in the same way that CPM can be toggled on/off or be temporarily enabled by holding down your chosen Hotkey. If skill shadows worked the same way, then they could be used momentarily, when the player chooses, rather than always being an intrusively visible feature of the game.

It isn't just about nostalgia, it's about wanting the game to look its best as well. I'd likely want to play some of the custom content with the shadows off, not just the original levels.

[WillLem]

That sounds creepy, and I'd be pretty unnerved if I were a new user and selecting an option brought up something like that.

To be fair, I only suggested it coz of what Icho said. As I've now mentioned in this OP, I'd simply have it as a Hotkey option and not necessarily as a menu option at all.

[IchoTolot]

To be fair, I only suggested it coz of what Icho said. As I've just now mentioned in this post, I'd simply have it as a Hotkey option and not necessarily as a menu option at all.

A hotkey option would be worse imo. You can accidentally press a hotkey, you cannot press a menu option accidentally.

[WillLem]

A hotkey option would be worse imo. You can accidentally press a hotkey, you cannot press a menu option accidentally.

Sure, but you wouldn't remove all HotKey capabilities from the game for this reason.

Also, it could be that there is no default Hotkey assigned for Skill Shadows, so players must go into the F3 menu and customise one themselves. This would ensure that players know which key toggles the Skill Shadows on and off, and eliminates the problem of a player accidentally toggling them off when they don't want to (and then not being able to switch them back on).

[IchoTolot]

Sure, but you wouldn't remove all HotKey capabilities from the game for this reason.

Also, it could be that there is no default Hotkey assigned for Skill Shadows, so players must go into the F3 menu and customise one themselves. This would ensure that players know which key toggles the Skill Shadows on and off, and eliminates the problem of a player accidentally toggling them off when they don't want to (and then not being able to switch them back on).

It's just because new players may hit it unwillingly by accident and then just struggle through the game with no explanation what happened. A hotkey for selecting a skill/framestep has much lesser impact and often they don't change things permanently until repessed.

Then I would rather take the extra checkbox in the options menu. The hotkey would be the far more dangerous option and can potentionaly harm a new players experience when it gets hit by accident and the player is unsure which button they hit.

Again, I still think the option is not needed, but if it is to be implemented the checkbox is the way to go.

[WillLem]

It's just because new players may hit it unwillingly by accident and then just struggle through the game with no explanation what happened.

I addressed this in my last message:

"it could be that there is no default Hotkey assigned for Skill Shadows, so players must go into the F3 menu and customise one themselves. This would ensure that players know which key toggles the Skill Shadows on and off, and eliminates the problem of a player accidentally toggling them off when they don't want to (and then not being able to switch them back on)."

To be honest, if a user-customised Hotkey was the only way to toggle skill shadows on and off, a lot of players would likely never realise that it was even an option, and so things would largely remain the same. Only those who specifically want to customise their experience in this way would take the time to do so; this is what I'm suggesting.

Seems like a win-win to me.

[Simon]

Please can one of the mods move everything from [...] onwards to this topic instead. Thank you!

Merged!

-- Simon

[namida]

Moved this to the appropriate board and replaced the poll with one that has answers that are useful to me.

My reasoning here: Before we consider how the feature works, we need to establish there's enough interest in having it at all. I believe there is, but I'd rather confirm this. Also, for a question like this, "I don't care" and "I specifically don't want it" are answers I'd treat equally - because this is a feature the latter group can outright ignore without it having any effect on them, however subtle. (A different consideration with such cases that IS still applicable is, "would this be a lot of effort to implement?" - but for this specific case, the answer to that is "no, it's barely any effort at all".)

Once we establish if the feature is desired, then we can talk about the how. For this case, an in-game hotkey would be significantly more work than just a menu option, even though the same "you can ignore it" equally applies. For that reason, I'd need to see a very strong preference for hotkey (compared to "menu option only") to consider doing that.

[IchoTolot]

"it could be that there is no default Hotkey assigned for Skill Shadows, so players must go into the F3 menu and customise one themselves. This would ensure that players know which key toggles the Skill Shadows on and off, and eliminates the problem of a player accidentally toggling them off when they don't want to (and then not being able to switch them back on)."

To be honest, if a user-customised Hotkey was the only way to toggle skill shadows on and off, a lot of players would likely never realise that it was even an option, and so things would largely remain the same. Only those who specifically want to customise their experience in this way would take the time to do so; this is what I'm suggesting.

Seems like a win-win to me.

Then it's a very hidden option which is also bad. I still think if this is going to happen a checkbox is the way to go.