Sammings Version 1 (Easy/Medium)

[mantha16]

Welcome to my first ever pack.

just 32 levels in this version

compatible with version 12.8.2.2212

The ranks are based on tilesets rather than difficulty so there isn't much difference between them.

Thanks to everyone who has put up with my questions
To Namida for developing NeoLemmix

To Proxima and WillLem for testing the pack and making suggestions (some I took some I ignored lol)

To IchloTolot for saving my sanity with technical assistance.

If people like the basic principle more levels will come.

Feedback welcomed (but might be ignored )

replays I'll only post if people request specific intended solutions because I'm not that bothered about 'backroutes'

[Shmoley]

I played a few levels and I'm liking it so far! In fact, It gave me an idea for level I'm going to make for my level pack! I remember when you mentioned that your levels were small, but I didn't expect that small! (Not a bad thing tho)

[Strato Incendus]

Played it through in one session. I must say - I'm very impressed!

As I was promised by Proxima, there were no X-of-everything levels here, just nice little puzzles. And as IchoTolot said, some were surprisingly hard! In particular, "Snow Apologies" was the first level when I realised that this was not going to be a cakewalk all the way through. Some levels that came after that one of course were easier again.

I guess the reason I'm surprised by someone submitting a rather high-quality pack as their first offering is because very few first-time level pack creators go through the effort of having their packs tested prior to release. This decision was definitely worth it, in your case!

A lot of people seem to sign up for the forum with a pack already in hand (unless they are only here to play, of course). The pack is their way of introducing themselves.

This pack however was different. I think I remember you created a development thread for it first, so you definitely took your time with it!



My only small gripes with the pack are of visual nature:

1) The levels are very small, so I found myself having to zoom in to the maximum possible on most levels.

2) I'm personally not a fan of grouping levels in ranks by tilesets - this is also one of my main gripes with Lemmings 2: The Tribes, where I keep jumping around between tribes for this exact reason . But that's just personal preference of course. The subjective impression of the levels being a little "repetitive" is amplified though by the fact that a lot of levels within one rank seem to have been developed from the same starting idea - and then you basically gave us 8 variations of that same core design.

The latter point was particularly true for the Bubble and the Pillar levels; the Snow and especially the Marble levels displayed much greater variety, which I liked!
The Marble levels also required less zoom. Therefore the final rank was my favourite overall, I'd say.

Because all levels from one tileset seem to be physically related, of course also certain aspects of the solutions repeat. Or maybe they are just skill moves you like particularly much. I've noticed the following tricks showing up repeatedly:

Spoiler

- Stacker-Walker staircases. Only in small amounts, though, basically only as a way to quickly gain a little bit of height where needed. Nowhere near as extreme as other packs, including my own, have taken them.
- assigning Blockers right beneath the hatch so that they continue walking in the correct direction when freed with a Walker at the end
- turning a worker lemming around with a Walker before he gets to work (e.g. with destructive skills) - because there are only enough Walkers to turn him around once. Thus, he needs to look into the correct direction before he starts e.g. digging, then bashing etc., so that he looks into the correct direction for all the skill performances, instead of having to turn around between skill performances. The latter would consume an additional Walker, because Walkers can always only either cancel a skill or turn a lemming around, never both at once. This is a great thing to keep using, though! A small detail that can easily trip the player up, and it's always hiding in plain sight!
I'm personally more familiar with a variation of is, which is timing the assignment of a Climber carefully, so that a lemming turns around whereever needed while he's still a regular lemming, until you change his status for good. Official examples of this include "Take care sweetie" from ONML; the epitome of this idea would probably be "Introducing: Climbers" from NepsterLems.

And honourable mention goes to the level "Alas Poor Doric" !

Spoiler

I didn't know Climbers could climb while in water. I just found out by accident while playing this level.
Although I guess I could have figured it out logically as well, given that I've done the inverse of this on an earlier version of one of my Lemmings Open Air levels: Climbers can climb up terrain that has water trigger areas placed upon it, but only if they are Swimmers. Otherwise, they drown, because the Climber's trigger is 1 pixel inside the wall.

I think in this case, the water trigger area actually only extends up to the wall; it doesn't cover the first row of pixels anymore. Thus, once the Climber is attached to the wall, he technically wouldn't even have to be a Swimmer anymore, I believe - because he's outside of the water trigger area at that point. He just needs to be a Swimmer to get to that position in the first place, because that path leads through water.

I'm already curious to attempt the follow-up pack to this!

One question though: What is the purpose of the levels in the additional folders referring to other tilesets (e.g. Casino Night)? The files are in there, but those folders aren't listed as ranks, so that the player doesn't include them when playing the pack. Did you decide to cut those levels for good? Or as they supposed to be added to the pack later on?



That's it from me. My replays are attached. Keep up the good work!

[mantha16]

thanks for the feedback strato much appreciated.  I like having very close looking levels but with different solutions and this was my first pack so I was just learning.  Being that you aren't keen on that I'm not sure you'll like  Sammings 2 as much.  I think the puzzles are slightly better in that I did try to be less repetitive.  I will say this though builder/bashers is pretty much my favourite trick so it is always likely to feature a lot in my packs.

If you don't like repetition in that sense I think you will very much  enjoy All the styles as there is 1 style 1 level.  Although it should be Almost all the styles because I am told there are 180 styles and I will probably stop around 165.  Currently I'm up to 128 but my masters degree starts proper on monday so progress will be a bit slower that it has been.

When I'm creating I have different thoughts in mind.

Sometimes I'll be like can I make a small puzzle interesting
can I make a large puzzle not be boring and repetitive.
I have a level that I really admire visually ok how can I make a good puzzle from that
Ok I want this level to have x trick how can I enforce that but make it look good.

I think All the styles will be the best stuff I've done as thanks to playing the intro pack from Icho I've learnt a few new tricks I didn't know previously so I'm obviously able to put a wider range of solutions into my packs.

I would say I differ from a lot of creators because I'm not that bothered about backroutes.  In life I'm all about the past of least resistance so can I realistically object to someone finding an easier solution to my levels?  That said Nessy who helped play test Sammings 2 has this habit of sort of backrouting levels but they aren't backroutes because they are way more complicated than the intended solution.   

[kaywhyn]

Hey mantha16,

I just finished playing through your Sammings pack, so I just wanted to send you my replays. I also did an LP of this pack, so the link to watch it is here: Kaywhyn's LP of mantha16's Sammings pack. Enjoy!

Feedback on the Pack

I'm mostly going to echo a lot of the feedback that Strato provided you, as I agree with nearly everything he has already said. The Snow levels were definitely enjoyable, particularly since I love the great variety from level to level in this group. None of the levels were particularly difficult, although I say Snow 2 is probably the most precise in terms of skill assignments. My favorite Snow level would have to be the final one, Snow 8. Quite open-ended and very easy. My only gripe with it is how the exit doesn't display fully, as most of the top seems to be abruptly cut off. Also, in Snow 5 and 6, the pickup label for the entrance could be more clearly shown, as I didn't even notice it until after the hatch opened. The easiest way is to simply move the pickup label beside the entrance and out of the way so that no lemming actually falls on top of it and "collects" it and make the skill icon disappear.

Regarding the Pillar levels, I also agree with Strato that this group of levels suffers the most in quality from being extremely repetitive in the level structure, as there isn't too much difference from one level to the next. I'm also not much of a fan of exits in midair. I got to say that it was amusing seeing a sideways water pool on Pillar 7 and was certainly great for the variety in the group of levels. At the same time, the level would also work with just a horizontally placed water pool on ground level. It was nevertheless my favorite of the Pillar levels. Pillar 8 was also a really good level, but I would make the pick-up skills clearer since it's very hard to tell what they are when they're partially hidden by the ceiling. It's not all bad here, since they simply turn out to be the skills that you don't have any of available at the start. It was probably my favorite level of the group or at least a close second. Pillar 6 was really nice for the creative trick of using a stoner to get lower with a digger.

For the Bubble levels, the Bubble tileset happens to be a big favorite of mine, as I kind of love the association of bubbles with playtime and with surprisingly how much you can do with them besides just blow bubbles from a wand. There was somewhat more variety with these levels than the Pillar ones, but for the most part these levels don't stand out as much from one another as well. So, I'm in agreement with Strato on not much variety here either and so the overall quality of these levels suffers as a result. Bubble 3 was certainly the hardest Bubble level of the group, and probably the hardest level of the entire pack, as evidenced in my LP in that this level took me the longest out of any level in the pack. I'm definitely not used to using stackers after platforming to get higher, as I'm more used to using them after building.

Finally, for the Marble, I 100% agree with Strato that I absolutely loved the huge variety of the levels in this group. Although the Bubble tileset is a huge favorite for me, I probably liked the Marble levels the best out of the other 3 groups in the pack. Well done! Both Marble 1 and 8 are quite precise in the skill assignments, with constructive skills and bomber, respectively, and I'm generally not a fan of fiddliness that can result from such precision. Other than that, these two levels were quite nice, although in the former we have the exit in midair again. Marble 7 is also really precise with bombing a digger so that there's a step on both sides for lemmings to land on to prevent them from splatting to get to the exit. My favorite Marble level is Marble 4. It has a time limit, but I don't mind them. I just love the solution the most in this level out of any of the other levels in the group. Finally, Marble 6 is another great level, although I would certainly make the fall clearer that it is not fatal. In my LP, when I did use the splat ruler, 1 more pixel lower and it would had been a fatal drop.

Overall, this is certainly not a bad attempt at a first pack. At least you've done something that I've yet to do, and that is design levels, let alone release a pack. I doubt I'll be releasing any level pack, but I will likely give level designing a try just to see if I'm truly capable of making great puzzles from levels. Just to reiterate my dislikes, I'm not much of a fan of exits floating in midair, as well as hidden pickups, whether partially or fully, and to an extent extremely precise skill assignments, but it all depends on the skills needed. Also, something that I have yet to point out, but I also generally don't like levels where the exits and entrances are cut off at the top. In some levels, the decorative object on top of the exit got cut off with the top of the level, and that to me just looks strange. Other than this minor gripe, some of the levels where this happens were still great ones!

Most importantly, the pack felt quite dull and repetitive with the same tileset, especially when there wasn't that much difference between the levels in each group to make them stand out from one another, which was especially prominent in both the Pillar and Bubble level groups. So, I'm in agreement with Strato here. Now, I wouldn't had mind levels being in the same tileset over in a row as much if there was much greater variety in the layout each time. Then the pack wouldn't had been as boring to me. However, I do understand that this is just your first level pack and you were simply learning at the time. I'm quite certain that you've learned from the feedback you have already been given and was able to use them to improve your sequel pack and future ones. As if I could do better than what you released. Pff, I wish That's why I prefer playing and solving levels, as my talents lie there, not in level designing, as I'm just no good artistically. Never was, never will be. It's a wonder how everyone in my family can draw except me.

To close off, I do appreciate these easy levels that you have made, so thank you for that! I've been playing nothing but very hard levels for the past several weeks, so this was a pleasant surprise to play much easier levels for once. Now, I don't mind difficult levels, as I can definitely pass them given enough time, but with how I've played nothing but hard levels for a long time, they're certainly burning me out. As much as I love the challenges of playing hard levels, I definitely need to play a bunch of very easy levels from time to time, as a way to relax and have more fun.

Once again, good job on a fairly decent first pack. Hope your studies for your Master's is going well, and I'll see you around whenever you come online      

[David]

I just downloaded your pack ! I will do it soon, probably. Besides, I'm happy, it doesn't look "too" difficult.

I see the levels are... very small and "basic" (few tiles). But, the most important thing is the strategy / level resolution !

[David]

Hello mantha16,

In my humble opinion, the graphics needed to be worked on a little better to make the game more "appealing". Also, I don't like exits "into the air" ! And, the levels are very similar, it's a shame !

Otherwise, I really enjoyed playing this pack, some levels I liked a lot, others made me think a lot.

To be more precise :

Snow 3, Snow 7 and Snow 8 : Great ! I really enjoyed these levels.
Snow 4 : I don't really like it because you have to repeat a trick (a bit repetitive !)
Pillar 3 : Awesome !
Pillar 7 : Nice, but a bit far-fetched ...
Bubble 3, Bubble 5 and Bubble 6 : Rather difficult levels that I enjoyed !
Marble 4 and Marble 5 : Two levels that I really liked.
Marble 6 : I loved this one.
Marble 7 and Marble 8 : Great ! And "pleasantly difficult" !

All my replays are attached !

Thank you ! I will take a look at Sammings 2 soon !

Bye !

[mantha16]

the levels are supposed to be similar thats the whole point of sammings and sammings 2, its supposed to be little terrain changes between each level. that said I agree some solutions are repetitive.  I like to think Sammings 2 has a bit more variety.

I do agree with some of the style comments cos this was my first attempt at designing levels but I would say I make what I like so people not liking mid-air exits is completely irrelevant to me and won't be changed.

[kaywhyn]

I would say I make what I like so people not liking mid-air exits is completely irrelevant to me and won't be changed.

It's your pack, so yes you do what you want with it. We're not telling you to change the levels so that exits aren't in midair. Both David and I happen to not like such levels, and we're simply stating that we're not fans of such levels. Definitely not criticizing you for that. Everyone's different though. Some people do like those levels, others not so much. We all have our likes and dislikes. I personally think it's fine to have such levels from time to time for the variety, but too many of them will start becoming annoying for me. Just my personal take and thoughts. Also, this may be your first pack, but as I have said before you still did quite decent with it I don't know if I can make a pack as good or even better than this

This being said, there may not be that much for me to look forward to in Sammings 2 even though there's slightly more variety. Still, I will have a look at the pack and play through it at some point in the future

[WillLem]

Even namida uses mid-air exits from time to time.

I don't mind encountering the occasional one as something a bit different, but I generally don't like them - not from a level design point of view, as I believe that any designer should be able to create whatever levels they wish, but from an aesthetic point of view.

In the one level where I use a floating exit (Lemminas - Sensational 12 Falling Forever), I just had to place some terrain either side of the exit's trigger, so that it was being supported by something. If I was going to use a purely floating exit, I'd want to animate it so that it looked light and ethereal, or even just straight-up make it cloud-shaped or something.

Anyway, as Kay said, each to their own.

For those lamenting the variety in these levels, bear in mind that this is Mantha's first ever pack, so isn't going to be perfect by any means. Sammings 2 takes this same concept a step further, and it a much more well-rounded level pack. Give that one a try.

[kaywhyn]

Anyway, as Kay said, each to their own.

Be careful about shortcutting my username like that. I actually have a girl cousin named Kay. Instead, use the full one completely spelled out, kaywhyn. I have mentioned how it's pronounced pretty much at the beginning of every LP video: "k" (the kay part of the user name), "y" (the why part of the user name), "n" (just the n part of the username), those three letters in that order

[WillLem]

Be careful about shortcutting my username like that. I actually have a girl cousin named Kay. Instead, use the full one completely spelled out, kaywhyn

Duly noted

[namida]

I don't mind encountering the occasional one as something a bit different, but I generally don't like them - not from a level design point of view, as I believe that any designer should be able to create whatever levels they wish, but from an aesthetic point of view.

Agreed. There are some exits, that are designed for midair usage, and these look a lot better - namida_sky's exit can be used on ground or in midair; while namida_bridge has an exit designed to sit on terrain as well as an exit designed to "hang" off a support above it.

However - ultimately, there's nothing unfair about the midair exit, as long as there isn't eg. terrain hidden behind it or similar. The player can clearly see what's going on, even if it is a tad unconventional, so is not being mislead in any way.

[kaywhyn]

However - ultimately, there's nothing unfair about the midair exit, as long as there isn't eg. terrain hidden behind it or similar. The player can clearly see what's going on, even if it is a tad unconventional, so is not being mislead in any way.

Right, that's not my reason for hating such levels. I just happen to not be a fan of levels that have exits in midair in general. I don't mind it on occasion, but if there's many of them in a row I will mind and it will quickly annoy me. Again, just personal likes/dislikes.