[BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini

[WillLem]

Your choice, of course, but I don't agree that imitating a bug in the original games is the right decision

To be fair, I think SuperLemmini models Amiga physics for the most part, so implementing this would bring it closer to that general goal. If that is indeed Tsyu's intention for SL (the same way Lemmix was originally modelled after DOS), then I can understand why he'd want this "bug" imitated faithfully.

If I'm not wrong, I also think this is why DD isn't being considered for SuperLemmini - it was never part of Amiga physics.

[Proxima]

There's a big difference between "where there are choices between different mechanics, go with what Amiga does" and "imitate the Amiga version, bugs and all".

[kaywhyn]

Hey Tsyu, another bug that has been observed. See attached replay. The climbers are able to climb through the ceiling and act as if there is no terrain above them when climbing. This also happens in custom level packs as well, but the one I have requires an L2 style, and so it's not going to load correctly. Is this climber behavior intentional? I highly doubt it. Credit goes to ericderkovits for discovering this, since he caught this while converting a Lemmini pack to Superlemmini.

Also another one that eric discovered, and that is a climber is still able to get over a builder wall (one where you use 3 builders stacked behind one another to create an impassable wall). However, if 4 builders are used, then it will stop a climber from getting over the builder wall. Is this intended behavior in Superlemmini as well?

[ericderkovits]

Hey Tsyu I've been converting Icholotots Lemmini version into Superlemmini. There is one  level where diggers are having trouble unblocking blockers.
In this level the solution requires this but I wonder if a blocker when trying to get released by a digger and the blocker has a foot hanging in space if he is supposed to be like that. I've spent hours on this level and could never get it to unrelease one particular blocker with a digger. Also Kaywhen mentioned the
one pixel ceiling where a climber goes thru it. also climbers are having trouble with terrain that is not thick enough like a slope against a wall where it blocked just not a huge block.

[kaywhyn]

FYI eric, if possible attach a screenshot or a replay for the issues you're describing. Sometimes, it's difficult to describe what you saw in words, but pictures tend to do a much better job. After all, "a picture is worth a thousand words."

So to clarify the issue that eric is describing in the last sentence in his post, see attached screenshot. In the level, when a climber is sent out to the left at the bottom, the climber is able to climb out as if no terrain was there and hence he doesn't hit his head and fall back down and walk back to the right. This issue here seems to be equivalent to the builder wall issue, as climbers can climb out of one in Superlemmini, but adding a 4th builder layer to the builder wall will stop the climber. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a 3 builder wall is 6 or 7 pixels thick, right? Seems like that's the number of pixels or less of wall in the screenshot and hence the climber able to climb out of this wall would be equivalent to the climber able to get over a builder wall issue.

[kaywhyn]

Another one that eric discovered. This one doesn't relate to game physics, but rather concerns loading replays. He's currently converting Pimolems to Superlemmini, but this also happened when he was converting Lemmings Reunion to Superlemmini whenever I sent him replays. Sometimes, when loading replays, the error message "the level specified in the replay does not exist" pops up (see attached screenshot). This seems to only be an issue when adding external levels. It shows up even when the external level has been added in Superlemmini. Replays included for custom packs work fine without errors. As an example, download this ini file, as well as my replay for the level The Warehouse. Surprisingly, my own replay didn't load for me, but when I sent it to eric he was able to view it just fine. Let's see if this works for anyone else who might have Superlemmini on their computer. Also, this is the very first time I encountered the error, but all other replays seem to work just fine with me. Not sure what happened that would had caused my own replay to not work.

Similarly, when I sent eric my replays for Be Lem-minded, he wasn't able to view them even with his own copy of the 316.ini file. He tried adding it again as an external level in Superlemmini, but it still didn't work. However, when I sent him my copy of the 316.ini file, the replays worked for him. So, Superlemmini seems to be very random in throwing out the error message.

So Tsyu, any idea what's going on here with Superlemmini throwing out this error?

edit: ok, eric sent me a replay for another level as well as the associated level ini file for it. The replay didn't work for me either. So, apparently no replays of his will work for me. I even tried backing up my Superlemmini directory and did the re-extraction via the .jar file to see if that would fix it, but that didn't solve the problem. What's going on here?

edit 2: ok, I tried another replay eric sent of another level he's currently converting to Superlemmini, and as you might expect it doesn't work for me either. This is starting to convince me that there's something wrong on my end with my Superlemmini program. I just can't figure it out. Anyone else able to view other people's replays of external levels just fine in Superlemmini?

edit 3: ok, WillLem just reported back to me and, like me, he's not able to view eric's replays of the levels too, even when the levels are added as external ones. This means either something's wrong with eric's replays (not likely), or this is simply a Superlemmini bug of how replays of external levels are handled.

edit 4: Ok, as of 1/16/21 and 1/17/21 the problem has been solved. Thanks to WillLem's unraveling of the replay text file, we were able to figure out why replays for levels added as external ones sometimes resulted in a crash. It's all due to the mismatch in the identifier information at the top of the text file. Even if it's correct, replays will sometimes fail, but in that case it's likely due to something happening in the level itself rather than the replay. So, consider this not an issue anymore. Thanks though, Tsyu

I've went ahead and removed the files I've attached since they don't need to be investigated anymore.

[ericderkovits]

ok I think this issue with climbers climbing things they are not supposed to (ie small things like wells, signs, and crosses) should be fixed as in Regular Lemmini climbers don't climb things like
crosses, signs, and wells. So in my Superlemmini Conversions of Lemmini packs many times I have to make adjustments in the levels that involve this climber issue. Also again they can also
climb thru 1 pixel terrain which they can't do in regular Lemmini or even Neolemmix.

[kaywhyn]

Hey eric, I've noticed that Tsyu was online a couple of days ago, so I'm wondering if he saw the most recent posts here. Since he didn't post to acknowledge this, I'm not sure. I absolutely agree with the climber issues in Superlemmini. They should not be happening at all. If Tsyu agrees and he fixes them, then you can revert the changes in the packs you converted over to Superlemmini.

Also, I don't know if I ever reported this to you, but when I sent your replay files to WillLem to test if they work for him, he also said they didn't work for him. So, it's very likely an issue with Superlemmini and how it handles replays. I doubt it's anything on your end, since your own replays work for you but for some reason they don't work for others like me and WillLem.

[ericderkovits]

Definitely I will revert the changes in the Packs if Tsyu addresses this climber issue. For example your favorite lemmini level "Drunk levels on the way Home" and also "Disturbance in the
Matrix" where i added a builder to allow for the intended solution. If Tsyu also fixes this climber issue also with the builder wall,or even small slopes then I'll go back thru the Packs and revert the changes.

[kaywhyn]

Did I say those two levels were my favorites from the pack? Far from it! For me, I think most favorite goes to a level from a much later rank.

[ericderkovits]

Sorry kaywhyn, I was only kidding about the Drunk lemmings on the way Home. It's just we were mentioning that level quite a bit, so I thought I would throw that in as kind of a way to show that we were annoyed with the builder wall having to add an extra builder. Also showing this replay in neolemmix where Icho said your other solution without using the builder wall would be too difficult
to fix. Also stating that your solution is more difficult to execute.

[kaywhyn]

Ah, inside joke. I get it now I knew I was missing something there. Thanks for clearing it up. Sometimes I take things too literally. They're favorites of mine to an extent, but in terms of fixing for Superlemmini... Yes, just like you, you're right about me being annoyed about the builder wall not working when it should. I sure hope Tsyu agrees and fixes them. It would really reduce the annoyance factor by quite a lot when you're converting and level solving in the engine.

[Turrican]

Hey Tsyu, another bug that has been observed. See attached replay. The climbers are able to climb through the ceiling and act as if there is no terrain above them when climbing. This also happens in custom level packs as well, but the one I have requires an L2 style, and so it's not going to load correctly. Is this climber behavior intentional? I highly doubt it. Credit goes to ericderkovits for discovering this, since he caught this while converting a Lemmini pack to Superlemmini.

Also another one that eric discovered, and that is a climber is still able to get over a builder wall (one where you use 3 builders stacked behind one another to create an impassable wall). However, if 4 builders are used, then it will stop a climber from getting over the builder wall. Is this intended behavior in Superlemmini as well?

What is showcased in the screenshot , is actually not a bug! This is part of the intended climber behaviour in the original  games ( like the dos version or the Amiga version of the game )! In that case , the behaviour of the climbers is correct in Superlemmini , and it's Lemmini and Neolemmix that have it wrong!

And that is because ,  Lemmini and Neolemmix , doesn't try to come close to the physics of the original games ,  and in comparison Superlemmini tries to emulate the Amiga physics (excluding things like glitches)!

The general rule in that case on the climber behaviour in the original game is that the climber when it starts climbing , can surpass larger obstacles , compared to what it can surpass in Lemmini/Neolemmix!

And to be honest here , I have years , to play the Amiga version ,  so what I describe in terms of physics , is based on the dos version of the game! But basic skill behaviours like this are the same between the dos and Amiga versions of the game , so in that case that climber behaviour seems to be intentional , a a result of Superlemmini emulating the physics of the Amiga version of the game!

EDIT: Also what I describe here , is based on the screenshot you have attached! I haven't seen the replay you have attached!

[kaywhyn]

What is showcased in the screenshot , is actually not a bug! This is part of the intended climber behaviour in the original  games ( like the dos version or the Amiga version of the game )! In that case , the behaviour of the climbers is correct in Superlemmini , and it's Lemmini and Neolemmix that have it wrong!

And that is because ,  Lemmini and Neolemmix , doesn't try to come close to the physics of the original games ,  and in comparison Superlemmini tries to emulate the Amiga physics (excluding things like glitches)!

The general rule in that case on the climber behaviour in the original game is that the climber when it starts climbing , can surpass larger obstacles , compared to what it can surpass in Lemmini/Neolemmix!

And to be honest here , I have years , to play the Amiga version ,  so what I describe in terms of physics , is based on the dos version of the game! But basic skill behaviours like this are the same between the dos and Amiga versions of the game , so in that case that climber behaviour seems to be intentional , a a result of Superlemmini emulating the physics of the Amiga version of the game!

Neolemmix is a fork of Lemmix (hence the second part of its name), as well as its own platform/engine, and so from that point of view there's nothing wrong with the climber behavior being different. Lemmini is also its own engine developed by a different person than that of Superlemmini, and so Superlemmini is more than just an improved version of Lemmini, particularly since the Lemmini exclusive glitches aren't present in it.

Right, I think it's already well-known from discussions around the forums that Superlemmini tries to emulate Amiga physics. Because of that, since the climber issue is also present in the Amiga version, it's just like you said, from that viewpoint there's nothing wrong with it and hence it would be intended behavior. On the Amiga, the climber behavior is never an issue because no level from the official games ever requires it. It's simply a behavior that I wasn't ever aware of that happens in Superlemmini until I saw it happening from when eric was converting Lemmini custom packs to Superlemmini, mainly due to how I grew up with the Dos version. AFAIK, these climber issues are not present in the Dos version (climber doesn't climb through several pixels of ceiling in the way like you see in the screenshot, 3 builder wall stops climbers properly).

At the same time, Tsyu, the developer, might had intended these climber behaviors, but since some of us think they're issues, that's why we reported them to him as bugs (in our eyes) and want to confirm with Tsyu whether they're intended behaviors or not. As they are, they're more than annoying when converting/editing in Superlemmini. I, for one, definitely think they should be fixed, though. Whether or not they'll be kept as is or fixed is of course ultimately up to Tsyu, as right now we simply don't know what he intended for Superlemmini.   

EDIT: Also what I describe here , is based on the screenshot you have attached! I haven't seen the replay you have attached!

It's just a screenshot. There's no replay attached showing the issue, so no, you're not seeing things or missing anything. You can always open up a level in one of the official games and try to create a situation in order to replicate the behavior, though. I can confirm that both climber behaviors (several pixels of ceiling above and climber still is able to climb no problem, climber is able to get past a 3 builder wall) happen from an ONML level I tested them on.

[ericderkovits]

Yes, I agree with Kaywhyn. Although these issues may be present in the Amiga version levels and no original levels require these, I do also think they should be fixed. Because most people don't just want to play the original games with Superlemmini. Many people also want to play custom packs too. Also if Superlemmini is going to even remotely compete with NL, they should be fixed, otherwise people will just want to play custom packs in NL. Also Colorful Arty's Sublems, I think he had to adjust at least some levels due to these issues. Just at the moment, I can't recall the specific levels.

Also I enjoy playing custom packs in Superlemmini, and it's quite annoying to have to address these issues when editing. For example, they appeared quite often in my conversion of Icho's Lemmini Reunion Pack.

@Turrican, Although I know you are very fond of glitches and irregularites in levels, as you make these kind or pick them from other peoples levels, not everybody just wants glitchy levels or irregularites with lemming behavior.

Also I know if Superlemmini didn't have any Custom packs availiable, I probably wouldn't even be interested in Superlemmini. Luckly, There are many custom packs availiable now, either previously or ones I convert. Also people should be glad that I'm fond of Superlemmini and am willing to take the time to make more custom packs for Superlemmini. Also most people don't know
how to deal with the conversion part or editing parts of Superlemmini. I seem to be the only one willing or know how to convert packs as I'm very knowledgable on  how the packing of levels works in Superlemmini(technical parts), as I've read Tsyu's info doc on how packs work(levelpack.ini and .ini's work). Even Willem requested info on this as I posted a small example on how to pack levels,
as I know Willem likes Superlemmini too. He found this part difficult, where I find it rather easy(with help from Tsyu's doc)