Split the Challenges board?

[namida]

This came up on Discord - should the Challenges board be split into two sub-boards, one for the official games and one for fanmade content?

I envision that if such a split were to occur, the new structure for fanmade packs would be that there's one topic per pack, possibly with multiple challenges being combined within that topic. However, that too can be open to some debate - perhaps a seperate topic for each challenge, even, is a good idea.

This question has come up in light of that recently, interest in challenges on custom levels has been spiking. We've got topics that are handling multiple, unrelated (except that "they're all NeoLemmix") packs - though one challenge per topic - which could easily grow out of control, and replays get buried to the point they can't easily be found again, if we keep the status quo.

But maybe I'm overthinking this and it's not needed - hence why asking here to see what people think.

[Simon]

The catch-all-NL topics should be split into one topic per pack. Then there will be one topic per pack, consistently -- since an out-of-the-box Lemmings game by DMA is a single pack.

If that is still too jumbled, then can further split into one topic per pack per challenge. That feels right to me, too, yep.

Either of this will work fine with the existing board structure. There are 67 topics in Challenges, maybe 100 after the topic splits, so it doesn't look necessary to split the board yet. If it turns out necessary after splitting the topics (which should be done anyway), then one can still reconsider to split the board.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

The catch-all-NL topics should be split into one topic per pack. Then there will be one topic per pack, consistently -- since an out-of-the-box Lemmings game by DMA is a single pack.

Actually, that wouldn't be the case, because old topics like "Skills you can't live without" cover all the official games in a single topic.

It still feels right to me to have one topic per challenge, split into official and NL (in other words, keep things as they are now) because then the opening post gives a nice overview of what is achievable across all the packs we've looked at. Namida's main concern (expressed in discord) is that as the topics get larger, it will be tricky for anyone who's interested to find a particular replay they want to know about (which is already a problem with the topics about the official games); but the current system makes it easy to look up a result. (I think finding replays is going to be a problem no matter what we do. Maybe we should compile them into zips and attach them to the opening posts.)

[WillLem]

One thing that's always confused me about the challenges board is that it's not always clear what the nature of the challenge is from its title, and it's also very easy to duplicate challenges or create ones that are very similar to something already in existence.

One topic per challenge per pack might get way too out of hand, so in that sense I agree with Proxima that one topic per challenge is better than this option.

However, I also agree with Simon that it would be slightly better to have one topic per pack, and post results for all types of challenge into the OP of that topic. Much like I'm doing with my Lemminas Records post: it contains all current records for time, % saved, and skills usage. However, this table can only be so wide before it doesn't fit on the page...

Which brings me neatly to my idea for solving this issue: have a main challenge topic for each pack with a table similar to the one found in my Lemminas Records post. Then, for anything beyond time records, % saved and total skills used, include links to the various separate challenge topic threads (things like SYCLW, which levels can be solved with only the NL skills, etc). There may even be few enough of these to warrant one topic for each pack.

So: players looking for challenges for a particular pack will then find everything they need in the pack's main challenge topic, which by extension could then be linked to from the pack's topic itself.

Along with Proxima's idea of compiling all replays into a zip in the OP and/or the second post, this would seem to solve all of the issues quite neatly.

To give an example of what I mean:

Example Pack Challenge Topic

Rank	#	Level	Fastest Time (Player)	Most Saved (Player)	Fewest Total Skills (Player)
Example	1	Example	1:00.00 (Player)	x/x (Player)	y/y (Player)

Additional Challenges for this pack:*

Skills You Can't Live Without
NeoLemmix-Skills-Only
Fewest Skills for Save Requirement
Levels Possible With Builders-Only
Pause-free
Etc...


*These could be done either as Spoilers or links to external topic pages, depending on the size/extent of the results data for each.

[namida]

However, this table can only be so wide before it doesn't fit on the page...

Why does every challenge need to be packed into a single table?

Also, FWIW, I suspect there will be very limited focus on best-time challenges, so if we were to go with a "put a few core challenges on a main table, then split off the rest", I don't think best time is one to go on the main table. Max saved and fewest total skills, and perhaps the combination of "fewest skills to match the save record" are the obvious candidates to go on it.

[WillLem]

Why does every challenge need to be packed into a single table?

It doesn't: I've updated my post with an example of what I mean.

Also, FWIW, I suspect there will be very limited focus on best-time challenges

I disagree: some players enjoy this, and it would attract more players to the challenge page if they could get a record displayed on the OP table.

If the table only focuses on skill-based challenges, it may end up excluding a potentially large number of people that enjoy (and are better at) time-based challenges. Besides, it seems to me that best time, number saved and total skills used is a good, simple framework for a table to begin with that's easy for new players to relate to, with other more complex/inter-related challenges being added as links either above or below the table.

[Proxima]

Here's an example of a post listing (almost) all challenges for a single pack. It's unwieldy and awkward to look through, and that is one of the smallest packs on record at a mere five levels.

I disagree: some players enjoy this, and it would attract more players to the challenge page if they could get a record displayed on the OP table.

If the table only focuses on skill-based challenges, it may end up excluding a potentially large number of people that enjoy (and are better at) time-based challenges.

Fastest times for the original levels has a topic, but it's only three pages long, which shows that these "potential" people haven't shown up, and they've had years to do so. Your Lemminas topic displays time records prominently, and it hasn't attracted any contributors besides you. (Admittedly, your topic is very recent, so maybe it's below the belt for me to cite that as evidence. Still, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for things to change.)

[namida]

^ And to add to this, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done at all, just that it's probably not going to become a "core" challenge in the same way the various skills-based ones do.

[WillLem]

Here's an example of a post listing (almost) all challenges for a single pack. It's unwieldy and awkward to look through

I agree. And, to be fair, this isn't how I've suggested records should be compiled for a pack. I've suggested an easy-to-look-at general results table, with links to specific topics for the other challenges for that pack. See this post for how I think it should be done.

Fastest times for the original levels has a topic, but it's only three pages long, which shows that these "potential" people haven't shown up, and they've had years to do so. Your Lemminas topic displays time records prominently, and it hasn't attracted any contributors besides you. (Admittedly, your topic is very recent, so maybe it's below the belt for me to cite that as evidence. Still, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for things to change.)

I see your point about people not showing up for the time-based challenges, although looking at it, it seems to be for Lemmix (the replays are .lrb) which is no longer as widely used.

Having said that, I can see that time-based challenges don't attract a lot of players generally. However, that's not a reason not to inlude them in a general table of results: the occasional player might see a time record they think they can improve, and add to it accordingly.

With regards to the Lemminas time records, the reason they're mostly me is because I've made a particular effort to go for fastest times. If anyone improves on my score, which has happened several times in the various replays I've reviewed, I'll go back and improve it again. You've managed at least a couple of time improvements that I can't beat or even match, so well done there!

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done at all, just that it's probably not going to become a "core" challenge in the same way the various skills-based ones do.

Sure, I understand that. However, I wouldn't see the main table in a post as being the "core" challenge table, more of a general records table.

With that in mind, can we agree that Best Time is a fairly universal video game standard for records keeping, and perhaps for this reason ought to be included in such a table?

I'd say that, any challenges which attract more attention (SYCLW and Minimum skills/maximum saves, for instance) probably warrant their own topic anyway, so this is even more reason not to include them in a general table of records for a pack.

[Minim]

It still feels right to me to have one topic per challenge, split into official and NL (in other words, keep things as they are now) because then the opening post gives a nice overview of what is achievable across all the packs we've looked at. Namida's main concern (expressed in discord) is that as the topics get larger, it will be tricky for anyone who's interested to find a particular replay they want to know about (which is already a problem with the topics about the official games); but the current system makes it easy to look up a result. (I think finding replays is going to be a problem no matter what we do. Maybe we should compile them into zips and attach them to the opening posts.)

In agreement with the first part. For replays, maybe a website like that of the Lemmings File Portal would work? (I only just found this website recently, hasn't been updated for ages so I don't know if we are still able to add to this) All the replay file links will at least be visible so that players can simply look up the level and the specific challenge they want to see.

Just bear in mind that not all levels from all challenges will have a replay attached to them. If we want to compile into zips, there should be a marker on which levels displayed on the OP have a replay available.