[Discussion][Player] The Jetboarder

[IchoTolot]

The Jetboarder

Provides Movement + Range + Construction, while staying simple and unprecise.


The lemming hops on a jet-surfboard and dashes straight forward. If he hits a wall during the dash it gets stuck inside the wall creating a platform under him in the process. When it does not hit a wall the lemmings falls down and simply loses the board.

The horizontal range could be around 64 pixels, while the length of the board could be around 6-8 pixels.

We have to move 1 pixel upwards though (board right above the ground), but I don't thik that's much of an issue.


We essentially combine an unprecise spear from the spear thrower with its range and construction potential with a possibility to get a lemmings far away from the crowd or reach new areas.

The skill can be assigned to a lemming in almost every state which makes it less situational and doesn't rely on a specific terrain setup.

The movement component is still different from the jumper as the jumper can go way higher, but not as far.

It can also be assignable mid-air and to jumpers and shimmiers making it even more versitile.



If we decide the complexity is worth it:

- We can also let jumpers, walkers and shimmiers be assignable to a lemmings currently surfing on the board. There could be the potential double jump possibility people suggested: Jump - board - jump and maybe finish off with a shimmier.


Possibilities I can currently think of:

- Getting a lemming far away from the crowd and over gaps.

- Crashing into a wall can be followed up with a destructive skill.

- Crashing into a wall with a climber lemming so it can go up.

- Creating a ceiling for climbers with the board.

- Assign the jetboarder to multiple lemmings on the same level to create a fast platformer bridge over a smaller gap.

- The boards also create simmier friendly terrain.

- Bomb the boarder for a ranged explosive. (That's why I think WillLem's timed explosive board is a bit too redundant while we have the possibility to do this)

- Stone the boarder to create a platform mid air.

- Create a floor for objects next to a wall like a hatch.

- After crashing into a wall the lemming is able to turn around and can then maybe float/glide/build in the other direction.

- Surf inside a teleporter to transport lemming + board.

- Assigning the skill further ahead or backwards to lemmings could be used to split them into different ways: Some will hit a wall, some will not reach it and fall.

- Clone the boarder mid way to reach areas in the middle of the way.

- When the board does not crash into a wall the lemming could be assigned a glider to get even further.

- Save splatting lems from a hatch with mid air assignments.

- Get to a lower level are with mid air assignments.



All of this with very low precision as the skill always goes in a strict horizontal line.

Any more idea and opinions?

[WillLem]

The more I think about this, the more I love the idea.

The jetboard could be pink like in Back To The Future II (and the lem could wear a baseball cap whilst gliding as well)...

[Strato Incendus]

It's certainly a creative new idea; it sounds similar to the already rejected Skateboarder, though that skill couldn't use its board to stick it into a wall as terrain.

Does it only rise 1 pixel once? Or 1 pixel per N frames? The latter would mean a slow diagonal ascension, similar to a Glider in an updraft.

If it stays 1 pixel above the ground and just moves horizontally, then it really seems more like the Skateboarder, which in itself was just a slightly more powerful Runner.

The idea that you can use the board as terrain, while interesting in theory, seems more like a constructive equivalent of the Bazooker. I think the Spear Thrower would still be more versatile than that, because its trajectory varies (and I don't consider the Spear Thrower that versatile to begin with).

I get that you maybe suggested this constant horizontal trajectory to increase predictability and make execution easier - but at the same time, this also further limits the skill's applicability.

For good reason, when it comes to destructive projectiles, we were zoning in more and more on the Mortar over the Bazooker, as far as I could tell - because the parabolic trajectory can be used in more different ways than a straight horizontal line.

This inevitable trade-off between "hard to predict at level start (before the skill shadow can be used)" and "limited range of applicability due to fixed AND constant trajectory" is one of the reasons why I don't particularly like projectile skills in general.

Well, there are two that I like a lot - the Archer and the Roper - but those have sadly been deemed too hard to implement. And then, I'd rather have no projectile or even no range skills at all in NeoLemmix than having a very limited version of what could be possible as a consolation prize (no offense, but the thrower skills are simply more limited; a Roper whose rope tears off can still accomplish the same things as either of the two thrower skills with just the hook at the end of the torn rope).

That said, in the joke-skill-ideas thread I actually brought up a projectile skill myself - a combination of Roper, Spear Thrower, and Mortar that can serve as a constructive and destructive skill at once: the Harpooner .

It wasn't intended to be completely serious, but it would be interesting to hear your comments on that, since apparently you're also trying to combine several skills into one and kill several birds with one stone - given that we only have one further skill to add to NeoLemmix.

[Proxima]

Link to Skateboarder for comparison.

The big difference between the two is that (as I understand it) when the Skateboarder reaches a drop in the terrain, he falls, either vertically, or maybe his momentum is enough to give him a diagonal trajectory. The Jetboarder, by contrast, continues moving horizontally and thus is able to get over gaps, as well as creating terrain directly ahead of himself.

[IchoTolot]

Does it only rise 1 pixel once? Or 1 pixel per N frames? The latter would mean a slow diagonal ascension, similar to a Glider in an updraft.

Just 1 pixel at the start so it can be assigned on flat ground as well.

I get that you maybe suggested this constant horizontal trajectory to increase predictability and make execution easier - but at the same time, this also further limits the skill's applicability..

That's why I combined the construction part together with a movement part and the ability to be assigned in mid air on top of that. We already know how powerful mid air assignment can be.

That lets me realise it could also be used to save lems from a splat hatch or generally get to a lower level area.

Also the ability to assign to jumpers and shimmiers on top of that increases the range of the skill drastically.

"limited range of applicability due to fixed AND constant trajectory"

I think will all the applications I listed and that the skill is not just movement, but also construction on top of it think does not hold true for this skill.

There is also the possible point I listed under "If we decide the complexity is worth it" that would further boost the usefulness.

That said, in the joke-skill-ideas thread I actually brought up a projectile skill myself - a combination of Roper, Spear Thrower, and Mortar that can serve as a constructive and destructive skill at once: the Harpooner

I think the explosion would be too much. The spear with the rope would already do the trick.

[Strato Incendus]

I think the Jetboarder is to the Tunneler what the Spear Thrower is to the Laser Blaster: Two skills that essentially accomplish the same thing (piece of terrain stuck in a wall so that it can form bridges or break falls), but one takes the lemming with itself, the other one has the lemming keep the distance.

Of course, the skill that takes the lemming with itself can make use of "the way needed to get there":
A Tunneler skill could essentially "fly" upward through terrain, like the Crawler glitch in Lemmings 2, because it's a destructive skill.
In turn, the Jetboarder could fly across gaps because it's a constructive skill - at least with regard to its end goal.

I don't know how often a Tunneler (upward Digger) would be exploited as a mere "through-terrain Climber" (=meaning without any other lemmings actually using the shaft he creates).
So I can't tell how often the Jetboarder would be used to simply get a lemming across a gap - i.e. as just another movement skill, without actually making use of the terrain he leaves behind.

When it comes to emulating this behaviour with current skills, I'd first think of Gliders moving horizontally through updrafts.

Since the Jetboarder would move by itself, I would compare it to the L2 Hang Glider in this regard - but that skill isn't different enough from a Glider to warrant inclusion.

I was a little surprised to see this very new skill suggestion jump straight to the list of "strong contenders" - we haven't voted on it yet, WillLem has expressed strong support for it (but to be fair, he has done so for quite a few skills ). So maybe namida just likes the skill personally and put it there?

But I think the question of "why not simply have a Glider fly across an updraft and stone on the other side?" is the main counterpoint which proponents of the Jetboarder would have to answer first.

This is a workaround that only requires one other skill (the Stoner) besides the replacement skill (Glider). So let's see to how many of IchoTolot's example use cases this combination would apply as a valid workaround:

- Getting a lemming far away from the crowd and over gaps.

This is something a Glider can do by itself. Yes, he requires a horizontal updraft to do it; the Jetboarder could do it anywhere.
For wider gaps without updrafts though, we have Shimmiers as long as there's a ceiling.
If there is no ceiling, we have Jumpers. They also suffice to get a lemming far a way from the crowd. (Here I see the similarity between Jetboarder and Runner again.)

So here we would only need the Jetboarder for the specific combination of:
- gap without a ceiling
- no updraft
- too wide to jump across

Sounds like an edge case. It would be easy to modify the terrain in such a way that a Jumper, Shimmier, or Glider could get the job done, without sacrificing much of the solution.

- Crashing into a wall can be followed up with a destructive skill.

If you mean bashing / fencing / mining into a wall, you can either use a Bomber to dent the wall or a Stoner to make a landing platform for the next Glider, who can start performing the destructive skill from there.
For smaller walls you don't even need the Stoner, but can use a Bomber instead: The Glider bounces into a wall and then explodes.

- Crashing into a wall with a climber lemming so it can go up.

This is the type of workaround we currently do with Stoners when we want to have e.g. a Shimmier transition back into a Climber.

Here is one of the few distinct uses I could see for the Jetboarder: Since IchoTolot established it could be assigned in mid-air, it should also be possible to assign it to a Shimmier. Even if not, you could assign it immediately as soon as the Shimmier begins falling. Then the Jetboarder takes him across the gap.
At this point, it doesn't matter whether the Jetboarder creates terrain or not - it just offers the Shimmier a temporary foothold from which he could also jump towards the wall and then continue climbing. If the board does land inside the wall, he can of course just straight up walk up to the wall and transition from a Walker to a Climber.

Admittedly though, this sounds more or less like a post-hoc addendum to the Jumper, since we seem to have agreed that it shouldn't be possible to assign Jumpers to Shimmiers.

So it would be a little weird to have a new skill now with the explicit purpose of allowing this, when we could just allow it for the Jumper instead - especially since the Jumper is still in its experimental phase, so none of the rules regarding the Jumper are set in stone yet.

- Creating a ceiling for climbers with the board.

This can also be done with a Glider and a Stoner - or a Jumper and a Stoner if the gap is small. Move the lemming up to the wall and stone so that a Climber can't get any higher.

Since the Jetboarder flies straight horizontally, whatever ceiling he creates won't be able to create a path for the Climber to shimmy along. Even if the Jetboard perfectly closes a small gap between the wall the Climber is climbing and the sloped beginning of a ceiling (thus allowing the Climber to get to that sloped ceiling and then shimmy onwards), this would be impossible because the Jetboarder flies at least 1 pixel above the terrain of said ceiling. Meaning, the Jetboard won't actually connect with the terrain it's supposed to lead the Shimmier to.

You would have to chain several Jetboards into each other to create an entire Shimmier path in empty space. At this point, though, I think using Platformers will result in less skill spamming.

- Assign the jetboarder to multiple lemmings on the same level to create a fast platformer bridge over a smaller gap.

Don't get me wrong, I do like fast bridges, as created by Ropers and Glue Pourers, as I've stated before. This however sounds like a just slightly more efficient version of the infamous Stoner staircase.

- The boards also create simmier friendly terrain.

As said above, in practice, this is impossible unless the Shimmier-friendly terrain is created only by Jetboarders  (or further Builders / Platformers connected with them, at which point you might jsut as well create the whole Shimmier path with Builders and Platformers):

You can't connect existing terrain with the Jetboarder's board to create a continuous Shimmier-friendly ceiling, because the board flies above ground level, and therefore also lands in the wall above ground level.

The Shimmier actually won't even be able to hoist himself onto the terrain the Jetboarder flew over - I was surprised to find this out, since I thought he would slip through that 1-pixel gap - but look in the attached screenshots what would happen in that case. I'm using a Platformer here to emulate the Jetboard stuck in the wall.

- Bomb the boarder for a ranged explosive. (That's why I think WillLem's timed explosive board is a bit too redundant while we have the possibility to do this)

Funny, since this was my argument against the Mortar - use another skill to get the lemming himself to the target position, rather than just a projectile. Except at this point, we can't really call it a ranged skill anymore, because it takes the lemming with itself.

And as said before, this again can be done with Gliders / Jumpers / Shimmiers. They combine with Bombers just as well as the Jetboarder would.

- Stone the boarder to create a platform mid air.

That seems redundant - the board itself is already terrain. If you need to stone the lemming to stop him, i.e. create a additional terrain, why not just stone a Glider or Jumper instead?

Maybe you could assign a Walker to the Jetboarder in mid-air to make him leave his board in the current position, walk to its edge and fall off. But this would run counter to the physics I would expect - a projectile like this keep moving until it hits an obstacle. Again, much like the Hang Glider in Lemmings 2.

And even if it were possible, Jetboarder + Walker would still accomplish the same thing as Glider / Jumper + Stoner, except that the lemming survives. Which, as established by namida, isn't enough of a difference to warrant a new skill.

- Create a floor for objects next to a wall like a hatch.

Again something that can be done with Bombers and Stoners. Like the Jetboarder, the lemming also needs to be in the target position with those two.
This is one of the cases where a regular (Spear) Thrower skill would be stronger, especially under a splat hatch. But the Jetboarder wouldn't retain this option of acting at a distance.

Of course, the Jetboarder could break falls as easily as the Stoner - meaning: too easily - by assigning it right away to the first lemming that falls. As long as there is a wall close-by which he can stick his splatform into. So it's a skill that can only break falls when a wall is around.

In other words: Kind of like the Slider!

- After crashing into a wall the lemming is able to turn around and can then maybe float/glide/build in the other direction.

Well, if you already bring up Gliders in this example anyway, a Glider can do this all by himself when landing on top of a Stoner or inside a dent a Bomber has made into a wall.

- Surf inside a teleporter to transport lemming + board.

This would be the difference to the Spear Thrower's spear, which moves separately from the lemming and therefore shouldn't be teleported.
However, you can "take terrain with you" as well when building or platforming into a teleporter.
Likewise, Jumper and Glider trajectories are maintained through teleporters, too.

So you could jump or glide into a teleporter, stone under the receiver, and start building or platforming from there.

Even better: If you build or platform into a teleporter, since the skill will continue automatically on the other side, you won't even need "starting terrain" at the receiver end, since those skills work without terrain under them.

If you only need terrain at the target destination somewhere after the receiver (i.e. where the Jetboard would eventually land), same business as in the previous examples: Teleport a Jumper / Glider / Shimmier, have them continue on their trajectory / through an updraft, stone at the target destination.

- Assigning the skill further ahead or backwards to lemmings could be used to split them into different ways: Some will hit a wall, some will not reach it and fall.

I don't quite understand what you mean here, so I'll postpone my judgment on this particular use case.

- Clone the boarder mid way to reach areas in the middle of the way.

You can just as easily clone a Glider, Shimmier, or Jumper. Back when we had slowfreeze, it also wasn't any problem to create two terrain pieces with one Cloner assignment this way.

Now of course you would have to use 2 Stoners instead of 1 Jetboarder, since you can't clone lethal skills. But then again, the Clone makes up for the additional loss, so you break even. (Of course, any case where you use a Stoner instead of a Jetboarder costs you 1 lemming, but as said before, mere "non-lethality" is not enough.)

- When the board does not crash into a wall the lemming could be assigned a glider to get even further.

Why not make him a Glider for the entire route then? Or have him shimmy along a part covered by ceiling, then transition to a Glider once he falls off that ceiling?

Jumpers can already transition into Gliders at the top of their arc (somewhat against established rules). Why would we need another skill to help Gliders get started?

- Save splatting lems from a hatch with mid air assignments.

This can literally already be done with the Stoner.

Note that I said workarounds involving skills as powerful as Stoners and Walkers can be bad arguments, in the sense of "let's rather have a new skill which can do this, rather than using a workaround with a Stoner that might end up opening a lot of potential backroutes".

This is one of the arguments I used in favour of the Slider, meaning "if you have to employ a Stoner in order not to use a Slider, it can easily break the level; therefore, we should have the Slider (e.g. for various Shimmier transitions that would require the Stoner otherwise)".

The difference here is that the Jetboarder would already be almost as powerful as the Stoner by itself when it comes to breaking falls. So you're not actually reducing the backroute risk all that much by providing a Jetboarder instead of a Stoner.

- Get to a lower level are with mid air assignments.

This is also a classic Stoner application.



So looking over it, the only thing that stands out to me as new - and which is something I would actually really like - is the ability to use the Jetboarder to transition from a Shimmier back to a Climber, by having the Shimmier jetboard once he reaches the end of a ceiling, and travel across a gap to another wall he can climb.

Even this can be done with a Stoner and a Jumper, though (not with a Glider, since the Glider can't grab the wall but will bounce off).

As said before, it's nice to be able to provide the player a less potentially-broken skill than the Stoner to accomplish this, but the Jetboarder in particular can still be abused to easily to break falls that the risk of backroutes elsewhere in the level doesn't actually seem that much lower, compared to if you just provided a regular Stoner.



So yeah... what can this skill do that Gliders and Stoners in particular can't accomplish by themselves? Especially since some of the things on your list already include interactions with Gliders and Stoners to begin with?

[Proxima]

That was a long post and I won't reply in detail, but a couple of things drew my attention.

So here we would only need the Jetboarder for the specific combination of:
- gap without a ceiling
- no updraft
- too wide to jump across

Sounds like an edge case.

For you, maybe. For me, having an updraft would be the edge case, while "no updraft" would be the expected normal state of things.

- Save splatting lems from a hatch with mid air assignments.

This can literally already be done with the Stoner.

Of course it can, but if you have a splat hatch and a stoner, that's not a puzzle, it's just a pointless extra move before beginning the real puzzle. (In other words, your main complaint about splat hatches but in miniature.) With a jetboarder instead, you can get one lemming to safety, and now it's still a puzzle to make the fall safe for the others.

[IchoTolot]

But I think the question of "why not simply have a Glider fly across an updraft and stone on the other side?" is the main counterpoint which proponents of the Jetboarder would have to answer first.

Multiple things don't work out here and that's why most point of your essay post won't hold up in reality:

- A glider needs to start gliding first and you cannot do this on flat ground right out of the bat. So you need extra setup there.

- The speed of the glider in an updraft is not very fast, the jet boarder is waaaay faster.

- All other gliders will most likely come with the lemming.

- A ton of updrafts is visually very messy in my opinion, especially if you need to cover the whole 64 pixel way.

As most of your examples rely on the glider they don't really work out in practice. We could also use updrafts and gliders to replace the cimber then.

This is a workaround that only requires one other skill (the Stoner)

Stoners are not as width as the board for once + require a sacrifice + are not shimmier friendly.

For wider gaps without updrafts though, we have Shimmiers as long as there's a ceiling.

- The shimmier is even slower than the glider and a snail compared to the jet boarder. It is even slower than a walker!

- The whole ceiling needs to be shimmier friendly.

If there is no ceiling, we have Jumpers. They also suffice to get a lemming far a way from the crowd. (Here I see the similarity between Jetboarder and Runner again.)

I've already addressed this. Jumpers gain way more height and are not even close to reaching as far as the jet boarder (~ 64 pixels)

So here we would only need the Jetboarder for the specific combination of:
- gap without a ceiling
- no updraft
- too wide to jump across

- Updrafts in levels are far from common over all they are even quite rare.
- Gaps without ceilings are quite common.
- There are also a lot of wider gaps, but this would be the most common out of the three.

You've listed mostly edge cases here.

Admittedly though, this sounds more or less like a post-hoc addendum to the Jumper, since we seem to have agreed that it shouldn't be possible to assign Jumpers to Shimmiers.

So it would be a little weird to have a new skill now with the explicit purpose of allowing this, when we could just allow it for the Jumper instead - especially since the Jumper is still in its experimental phase, so none of the rules regarding the Jumper are set in stone yet.

The jet boarder is not a double jump in comparison and that's the point! The lemming gets on a board and starts dashing. A jumping shimmier should not jump again, but getting on his board does not require another jump.

Since the Jetboarder flies straight horizontally, whatever ceiling he creates won't be able to create a path for the Climber to shimmy along. Even if the Jetboard perfectly closes a small gap between the wall the Climber is climbing and the sloped beginning of a ceiling (thus allowing the Climber to get to that sloped ceiling and then shimmy onwards), this would be impossible because the Jetboarder flies at least 1 pixel above the terrain of said ceiling. Meaning, the Jetboard won't actually connect with the terrain it's supposed to lead the Shimmier to.

You would have to chain several Jetboards into each other to create an entire Shimmier path in empty space. At this point, though, I think using Platformers will result in less skill spamming.

Maybe not for the climber, but for lemmings on a lower level this its perfectly fine. Chaining several jet boarders is quite easy to do and very fast compared to platformers.

Don't get me wrong, I do like fast bridges, as created by Ropers and Glue Pourers, as I've stated before. This however sounds like a just slightly more efficient version of the infamous Stoner staircase.

Then be a good level designer and just don't over do it! On top of that they are wider than a stoner and perfectly fit into each other + you don't have to assign them precisely.

In other words: Kind of like the Slider!

The slider is ONLY applicable at a wall and therefore very restricted. Your comparison does not hold up.

I don't quite understand what you mean here, so I'll postpone my judgment on this particular use case

Abuse the max range of the skill and letting lemmings end in different positions.

This can literally already be done with the Stoner.

Note that I said workarounds involving skills as powerful as Stoners and Walkers can be bad arguments, in the sense of "let's rather have a new skill which can do this, rather than using a workaround with a Stoner that might end up opening a lot of potential backroutes". This is the argument I used in favour of the Slider, meaning "if you have to employ a Stoner in order not to use a Slider, it can easily break the level; therefore, we should have the Slider (e.g. for various Shimmier transitions that would require the Stoner otherwise)".

The difference here is that the Jetboarder would already almost be as powerful as the Stoner by itself when it comes to breaking falls. So you're not actually reducing the backroute risk all that much by providing a Jetboarder instead of a Stoner.

In breaking a single fall, yes. But for the entire hatch you will have to get more creative.

- Get to a lower level are with mid air assignments.


This is also a classic Stoner application.

And the only out there! The stone also comes with a sacrifice and a piece of terrain to abuse diirectly at the fall site. This does not hold up really.

So yeah... what can this skill do that Gliders and Stoners in particular can't accomplish by themselves? Especially since some of the things on your list already include interactions with Gliders and Stoners to begin with?

The rest of your arguments all rely on the glider comparison which is just not suitable. Especially with the updraft usage you proposed.

[IchoTolot]

I am just now seing the pictures in Strato's post and you have some wrong thoughts again as it seems:

If the board comes from the left it's 1 pixel too far up in the air.

I've never envisioned the shimmier to be able to do this. I have envisiond shimmiers much further away and the spear being at the lowest point of a wall it ends in, so it extends the ceiling below.

[Strato Incendus]

For you, maybe. For me, having an updraft would be the edge case, while "no updraft" would be the expected normal state of things.

That is not the point - the point is that we already have skills and or objects that allow an emulation of the skill whenever it is required.

Part of IchoTolot's criticism of the Slider is that some of its behaviour can be emulated, as I have demonstrated myself, using one-way fields (specifically by having Floaters fall through one-way fields). One-way fields being present in a level would also not be the standard case - yet, in principle they still allow to emulate this part of the Slider's behaviour.

The important difference is that this turning behaviour is not permanently attached to the lemming - because that's what makes Slider puzzles interesting, having it as a permanent skill.

The Jetboarder, in contrast, is not a permanent skill. So it can be emulated by an object more easily in whatever specific place of a level it would become relevant.

Of course it can, but if you have a splat hatch and a stoner, that's not a puzzle, it's just a pointless extra move before beginning the real puzzle. (In other words, your main complaint about splat hatches but in miniature.) With a jetboarder instead, you can get one lemming to safety, and now it's still a puzzle to make the fall safe for the others.

This is true, but it is also another classic example where the Glider comes into place (in this case without a Stoner). Like the Jetboarder, the Glider needs to find a wall where he can land, so that he can start building a splatform from there.

The Jetboarder would still have to build; in order for a single Jetboarder to break a fall specifically from a splat hatch by himself, that hatch would have to be placed half inside the wall, which is really not aesthetically pleasing and also mechanically confusing, since the player can't tell whether the lemmings will fall or spawn inside the terrain of the wall.

For a Jetboarder to break a fall from a splat hatch, you'd have to chain several Jetboards into each other to create an even platform, connecting the closest wall to the point where the lemmings drop. In other words, you'd have to build a slightly more efficient Stoner staircase whenever you'd want to break a fall - which is tedious to assign.

At the same time, the Jetboarder would still possess the inherent power of the Stoner of being assignable mid-air. Thus, you wouldn't even have to allow a single lemming to hit the ground (as a Floater or a Glider landing somewhere else). You could still solve the entire splat-height-hatch issue from mid-air, it would just take more assignments of the same skill (i.e. skill spamming), compared to the Stoner where a single instance is enough.

And in turn, a scenario where you only have one Jetboarder who needs to build the splatform from the wall he hits is like a Glider landing in a Bomber niche inside the same wall, and then he starts building from there (Stoners wouldn't work in this case because you'd simply assign them straight to one of the Fallers coming out of the hatch, of course).



Now to IchoTolot's new posts:

I am just now seing the pictures in Strato's post and you have some wrong thoughts again as it seems:

If the board comes from the left it's 1 pixel too far up in the air.

I've never envisioned the shimmier to be able to do this. I have envisiond shimmiers much further away and the spear being at the lowest point of a wall it ends in, so it extends the ceiling below.

I think it just wasn't quite clear what you meant by the board being "right above the ground" - "with a 1-pixel gap between terrain and board" (i.e. floating on air, like a Back-to-the-Future hover board), or "sliding directly on top of the terrain", more like a snow board. It seems like you meant the latter. Sure, in this case the pieces of terrain will connect, and the Shimmier can continue (see the updated screenshot attachment).

At the same time, the board sliding right on top of terrain will also mean it will be stopped by a single pixel of terrain higher than that. It won't be able to go up slopes, and it won't be very useful in general in tilesets with a lot of rough pieces (Dirt, Bubble, Rock, Cavelem, Polar, Beach, Outdoor, just to name a few of the classic ones).

- A glider needs to start gliding first and you cannot do this on flat ground right out of the bat. So you need extra setup there.

With Jumpers transitioning to Gliders at the top of the curve, it's easier than ever to start gliding from flat ground.

- The speed of the glider in an updraft is not very fast, the jet boarder is waaaay faster.

This difference only matters when the skill offers other distinct qualities; otherwise, it's the Runner / Superlemming argument (or also the argument against the Glue Pourer): Faster performance of an identical behaviour isn't enough.

- All other gliders will most likely come with the lemming.

This is an empty truism since it applies to any situation where several lemmings share the same skill (all Climbers follow the first Climber, all Shimmiers follow the first Shimmier etc.). Simultaneously, there are always ways to isolate the pioneer from the rest of the crowd by blocking of the path: If only one Glider jumps, only he can start sailing on a ground-level updraft while every other Glider remains on their feet. If you place a Stacker / Blocker or use any of the other multitude of crowd containment options, of course no other Glider will follow.

If, in contrast, you think of a flow-control scenario without any crowd containment, again, this is the "one lemming is just faster and ahead of the crowd" argument that already didn't work for the Runner, because the Jumper can accomplish that on its own.

- A ton of updrafts is visually very messy in my opinion, especially if you need to cover the whole 64 pixel way.

To my knowledge, you've stated before that mechanical fairness comes before visually pleasing aspects for you. Updrafts are clearly visible for the player from the getgo.

Stoners are not as width as the board for once + require a sacrifice + are not shimmier friendly.

All of these are minor differences:
- "this skill is a non-lethal version / doesn't require a sacrifice" is irrelevant as it is not enough of a difference, see the arguments against WillLem's non-lethal Stoner and non-lethal Bomber (Lightsaberer)
- width of the terrain created is also just a minor detail. The L2 Scooper also creates a slightly different shaft than the Miner, but that doesn't justify it's inclusion. We could have a bunch of different terrain lengths created by various constructive skills, and they'd still overlap too much.
- as I stated before, I think you overestimate the Shimmier-friendliness of the board the skill leaves behind. So while yes, Stoners are not Shimmier-friendly (unless they close gaps in otherwise even ceilings), I don't think the board would be more Shimmier-friendly enough to use this as an argument over the Stoner.
You can still achieve the same puzzle effect by having a thin gap between wall and ceiling closed a Stoner (which will then indeed create a Shimmier friendly ceiling because the rest of the ceiling is even) vs. having a slightly wider gap between wall and ceiling closed by a Jetboard

- The shimmier is even slower than the glider and a snail compared to the jet boarder. It is even slower than a walker!

- The whole ceiling needs to be shimmier friendly.

Again, I think speed shouldn't matter too much, since whenever it becomes relevant, that adds elements of execution difficulty (be it time limits or very precise flow control where every frame counts).

While the Jetboarder doesn't require friendly, flat ceilings, as I said above, if it slides right on top of the terrain, it will require Jetboard-friendly grounds. Just like every rough edge in a ceiling will stop the Shimmier, every rough edge in the ground will stop the Jetboarder.

At this point, its applicability as a speed-increasing skill (like the Runner) becomes drastically limited. You will really have to wait with the assignment until right before the gap the Jetboard is supposed to cover - or just use one of the very block-ish L2 tilesets (but remember not to use any upward slopes!).

The Platformer is limited by the fact that it can't be assigned on flat terrain. To my understanding, when the lemming is not currently at or in a gap, the Jetboard can only be assigned on perfectly flat terrain, and more than that, even needs a combination of flat terrain at its exact height and/or empty gaps, all the way between its starting point and destination.

I've already addressed this. Jumpers gain way more height and are not even close to reaching as far as the jet boarder (~ 64 pixels)

Once more, we're arguing about mere number differences. The Jumper goes a little higher, but shorter; the Shimmier requires a ceiling, but can go even wider; the Glider requires an updraft and can go higher and wider. This is missing the forest for the trees:

What puzzle situation is so specific that a gap needs to be too wide for a Jumper to cross, and must not have a ceiling above it, and must not have an updraft to allow a Glider to get across instead?
What puzzle specifically requires all three of these conditions to be unfulfilled at the same time, so that only a Jetboarder could solve this situation?

- Updrafts in levels are far from common over all they are even quite rare.
- Gaps without ceilings are quite common.
- There are also a lot of wider gaps, but this would be the most common out of the three.

You've listed mostly edge cases here.

It doesn't matter how often other people use updrafts; if you need them for your puzzles, they're always available to you! Adapt the terrain and objects to your needs. You are the level designer, you can easily modify these to fit your puzzle. Isn't that what you've always been telling me?

Just like I can always use one-way fields to turn Floaters around and imitate Sliders, you can always use updrafts to get Gliders across wider gaps without ceilings.

The difference is that the Slider can do 2-3 important other things (permanent turning behaviour attached to a lemming, Shimmier transitions, falling on platforms with alligned edges) that can't be emulated by one-way fields. Otherwise I'd be perfectly fine with just making more use of one-way fields from now on, especially since you can easily resize them in New Formats to not be larger than absolutely needed. Then I'd be happy having e.g. a diagonal Laser Blaster as the 20th skill instead and continue to simulate my Sliders with one-way fields.

You can easily do the same with updrafts.

The jet boarder is not a double jump in comparison and that's the point! The lemming gets on a board and starts dashing. A jumping shimmier should not jump again, but getting on his board does not require another jump.

I'm not talking about double jumps; those refer to Reachers. I'm talking about Shimmiers, i.e. lemmings already attached to a ceiling.

They can't jump off the ceiling (for example once they reach the end of a ceiling) to get across a gap that follows this ceiling. The Jetboarder would allow them to do this, because they transition back to a Faller once they reach the end of the ceiling.

Then be a good level designer and just don't over do it! On top of that they are wider than a stoner and perfectly fit into each other + you don't have to assign them precisely.

Aren't they only one pixel in width? If you need several Jetboards stuck into each other, you actually do need to assign them perfectly at exactly the same height. Otherwise one will go beneath the next one, because there's nothing to get stuck in. This way, unless assigned at the exact same pixel of height, they will create a stack of Jetboards stuck far away in the wall, rather than forming a continuous longer platform. Or some platforms will be at the same height and slightly longer, others lower and stuck in the wall, but none long enough to form a continuous platform from the wall up to the place where the Fallers drop.

Stoner staircases may be shorter, but they don't require such precision with regards to vertical assignment.

The slider is ONLY applicable at a wall and therefore very restricted. Your comparison does not hold up.

For the Jetboarder's purposes as a constructive skill, it does. Or what will happen once a lemming reaches the maximum length of 64 pixels without having hit terrain? You said the lemming falls down - does that mean the board remains floating in the air? Does he transition back into a Walker on top of his board and walk off, or does the entire thing fall down (I assume the latter)? Because in that case, you'd actually need a wall to be able to construct anything.

If the board remains in the air, this would mean it's already terrain while it's moving, and the lemming has to stand still on top of it. This would essentially reintroduce the problem with lifts (moving pieces of terrain). namida has stated in the past that he would have loved those, but that they are a nightmare to code.

Abuse the max range of the skill and letting lemmings end in different positions.

Ah, okay, I needed to combine that with the sentence from the earlier post to imagine what you mean. Yes, this would be an interesting new application, since none of our current skills have maximum ranges in general.

If I really wanted this on a puzzle right now, though, I'd probably do it with a Jumper. For example, make a holding pit so that a Jumper assigned at the edge of one of its walls can barely make it across. Then assign other Jumpers earlier so that they jump into the pit instead of over it.

Sure, the gaps those Jumpers could cover would be much smaller. But the question is again, how many puzzles specifically need the gaps to be much wider if they want to resort to this specific method of crowd separation?

In breaking a single fall, yes. But for the entire hatch you will have to get more creative.

As said before, to me there are two scenarios when it comes to assigning skills to Fallers in order to break the fall of the entire group:
1) A skill assigned in mid-air is enough to break the fall by itself - 1 Stoner, or 2-3 Jetboarders, lined up perfectly at the exact same pixel of height to form a continuous platform between wall and hatch
2) A single lemming goes off to the side and starts creating a splatform from there (which is what I think you refer to with this quote). This is a classical Glider application.

And the only out there! The stone also comes with a sacrifice and a piece of terrain to abuse diirectly at the fall site. This does not hold up really.

That can't be the case, since we already had two Stoner applications in this same post:
1) Breaking falls
2) Starting to build or perform other skills from lower levels (even if the Stoner isn't required to break a fall in that case, it just gives you access, a starting point for any skill that requires ground under the lemming's feet)

But Stoners have many further uses: They can serve as Blockers, they hold back Climbers (in contrast to Stackers), but they can easily be disabled again by closing the gap at their feet, so that lemmings can ascend over them again (6-pixel-jumps). They can also be removed with destructive skills once the crowd needs to be released. And they can make Swimmers dive (which is the most niche application). They can prevent Climbers from continuing to climb, they can cause Shimmiers to drop from a ceiling.

The Stoner was indeed my classic example of how a single skill can fulfil multiple purposes, so that you can make an entire level with many different tasks, yet still only involving that single skill. There aren't many skills for which we can say this - the Builder of course is one, the Miner probably too, and I also managed to create an advanced Digger-only level, but that involved a lot of steel to make it work.

This versatility of course is what makes the Stoner so powerful - and also frequently broken. But for all its problems, the Stoner is here to stay, and with it being a constructive skill, it does have a lot of overlap with any other constructive skill that creates comparatively small pieces of terrain (like Throwers, and the Stacker, of course). And also the Jetboarder.

While the Jetboarder might share the weakness of needing a wall to break a fall with the Slider - and as I said, if I argued for the Slider not to be emulated with Stoners, that same defense from me is available to the Jetboarder, at least in principle - I think the actual danger for broken-ness lies in the mid-air assignment. This is something that's obviously not possible with the Slider, but both the Jetboarder and the Stoner share it.

This allows a Jetboarder to fly off in whatever situation he drops into a hazard zone. This is something only the Glider can do so far, but at least the Glider is limited by updrafts, and by the fact that it does still have to come down without them.

The Jetboarder is only limited in its height remaining constant, and by its maximum length. But as you said, 64 pixels covers quite a large gap. So unless he's flying over a particularly wide ocean (at this point I would no longer call it a water pit), he's very certain to land outside the danger zone. Even if the place where he arrives features splat height, unless you only have 1 Jetboarder available on a particular level, you can just have him drop a couple of pixels and assign another Jetboarder - if need be 1 pixel above the ground, so that it still acts as if the lemming had landed safely as soon as he dashes into the slightest increase in terrain altitude.

The rest of your arguments all rely on the glider comparison which is just not suitable. Especially with the updraft usage you proposed.

You mean not as suitable as comparisons between Floaters and Sliders, when the Slider is actually a downward Climber?

Updrafts can fulfil a lot of purposes we may not think of, just because people might not use them frequently. For example, they were also our New-Formats surrogate for anti-splat pads while they were removed, since 90% of the time, the two are identical. namida brought anti-splat pads back because they had been used on previous puzzles, so there was more harm than gain in keeping them out of New Formats. But essentially, they were brought back for the edge cases of having to build into anti-splat pads first - specifically in such cases where lemmings need to fall through the area of the anti-splat pad first and this fall has to be splat height (because an updraft would reset that where an anti-splat pad without terrain in it would not).

So yes, in this case, we got something back that we really only need for edge cases - and I'm happy about it for the few levels I created where this actually makes a difference. But we wouldn't have needed anti-splat pads back for a majority of level ideas to work, because they could simply have resorted to updrafts. And when it comes to something likely as permanent as the introduction of a new skill, there should be an actual need that this skill fulfils.

There will always be some levels where these edge cases apply, and it's of course always possible to come up with an example level. The relevant question though is the frequency with which such levels actually come up.

Feel free to showcase some example level ideas that could use the Jetboarder! Then we can try and see for ourselves whether the level can be modified easily enough to still be solvable with either Jumpers / Gliders / Shimmiers / Stoners etc., or whether any such modification would result in either a drastic modification of the solution, or create a bunch of backroutes.

[Proxima]

That is not the point - the point is that we already have skills and or objects that allow an emulation of the skill whenever it is required.

Hardly. I can see that in discussion of a new skill, it's a fair question to consider whether it can be emulated with existing skills; adding objects such as updrafts is a completely different ball game. The designer often can't place an object just anywhere, either because then any lemming could use the object, or because it telegraphs where a skill is to be used (especially a problem with gliders and updrafts) or just because it makes the level ugly. (Icho may not care about this, but I certainly do.)

Part of IchoTolot's criticism of the Slider is that some of its behaviour can be emulated, as I have demonstrated myself, using one-way fields (specifically by having Floaters fall through one-way fields). One-way fields being present in a level would also not be the standard case - yet, in principle they still allow to emulate this part of the Slider's behaviour.

The important difference is that this turning behaviour is not permanently attached to the lemming - because that's what makes Slider puzzles interesting, having it as a permanent skill.

This isn't the Slider topic. Can we please not have all of these "possible new skill" topics turn into showdowns?

[IchoTolot]

Strato before you post yet another essay about this, please think about the implications of your workaround for this first.

If we would emulate the jet boarder with a very large updraft then you can also say the following:

- Replace all activities of the climber with updrafts and gliders.

- The shimmier would be also totally redundant with this logic.

- The swimmer as well.

- The jumper arc could also be simulated.

Also, updrafts are just a big sign that says: Glide here!!! Giving away the solution.

While the Jetboarder doesn't require friendly, flat ceilings, as I said above, if it slides right on top of the terrain, it will require Jetboard-friendly grounds.

That means only that there must not be an upwards slope and even then every slope has its high point and you can always just assign there.

For the spamming jet boarders for a platform thing: Just have 1 piece of flat terrain and it is trivial and not precise.

What puzzle situation is so specific that a gap needs to be too wide for a Jumper to cross, and must not have a ceiling above it, and must not have an updraft to allow a Glider to get across instead?

Quite a lot to be honest. Just take a gap that you want to build over later, that already rules out the ceiling. Make the gap 2 builders wide and it's already too wide for the jumper.

And why we just use gliders and updrafts for everything in terms of shimming, swimming, climbing,....heck make the whole level full of updrafts can we can reach everything.

Your whole argumentation for nearly all of your workarounds just does not hold up in reality. As covering every horizontal way with giant updrafts is just not a viable substitute and also clearly gives away any solution. Also, if we were to think this was viable then why have climbers, shimmiers, swimmers and jumpers.

(Icho may not care about this, but I certainly do.)

I do care about this as well.

[Strato Incendus]

When it comes to simulating upwards-moving skills with updrafts, especially Climbers, it's different because the Gliders actually need to be held in some type of cell in order to be able to ascend where a Climber would ascend otherwise. You would either need a really wide gap (much wider than the Jetboarder could cover) to allow the Glider to rise diagonally, or, which I think is more comparable with the Climber, for a close-to vertical ascension you need walls on both sides in addition to updrafts being stacked in between those walls. Thus, simulating Climbers with Gliders would not merely require adding an object (the updraft), but it would require very specific terrain modifications as well.

Since the Jetboarder moves strictly horizontally, terrain modifications would not be required to make a Glider in an updraft work vs. making the Jetboarder itself work.

Quite a lot to be honest. Just take a gap that you want to build over later, that already rules out the ceiling. Make the gap 2 builders wide and it's already too wide for the jumper.

And why we just use gliders and updrafts for everything in terms of shimming, swimming, climbing,....heck make the whole level full of updrafts can we can reach everything.

Two-Builder gaps are a fair point. Indeed this is where I would propose the updraft replacement, because neither the Shimmier nor the Jumper would work, obviously.

I do agree that updrafts can give away parts of the solution, but the same is true for one-way arrows. Or for one-way fields. The good thing about all three of these objects though is that they still have several possible uses; so just because there is an updraft, this doesn't actually mean "glide here". It can also mean "you're going to need this updraft to break a fall, either within the updraft or below it, later on".

Likewise, sometimes one-way arrows just serve as steel replacement where you can't actually place real steel for terrain-shape reasons. Meaning, while one-way arrows usually scream "bash / mine / fence / dig here, and do so from this side!", sometimes they also just mean "you shall not pass from the other side". And one-way fields sometimes mean "pass from this side, but don't go back", sometimes "perform a skill into this and turn around mid-performance", sometimes just "this is a regular straight wall, but I don't want you to be able to climb it".

So while of course I also prefer to give away as little about the solution as possible, patching out backroutes is ultimately more important. And indeed, I see the Jetboarder creating a lot of backroutes. In that case, I would prefer updrafts making the intended solution slightly more obvious to the Jetboarder accidentally completely breaking the intended solution.


I thought about this overnight again, and I've come to the conclusion that, for both the Stoner and the Jetboarder, it's not actually so much the potential of breaking falls easily that can make them overpowered: It's the constantly-available option of assigning this skill anywhere in mid-air. This translates to "play this level at whatever pixel of altitude you choose!" Especially when hatches are at the top of levels, which is quite common.

Even the Glider can't just randomly go off to the side at whatever altitude he chooses. He can do that if there are updrafts, but otherwise, he will still be forced to go down fairly quickly, just at a diagonal angle. But he will be influenced by walls flipping his trajectory while gliding.



One point in the Jetboarder's favour in my book would be to what extent it would allow to make Shimmier transitions possible - not just from Shimmier to Climber, which I said before would be a new use that no other skill can accomplish, but also for the opposite case, i.e. Faller to Shimmier (the classic Slider application). In other words "Can the Jetboarder actually replace the Slider in some scenarios?"

For example, you could have a lemming fall until he reaches a corner in the ceiling, jetboard under that ceiling, then start shimmying off the jetboard (I take it that jumping off the jetboard, both in terms of the Jumper and the Reacher, is possible).

You would still have to turn the lemming around somehow, because unless he is falling through a very thin gap, he would fall down from on top of the terrain chunk he wants to shimmy under, i.e. look in the opposite direction. (For example, walk to the right until you reach a cliff, fall down, then shimmy to the left). This could be accomplished by having him fall through a one-way field (which of course would affect all lemmings falling through it), or by cloning him in mid-air, either during the fall or once he is a Jetboarder. The important point is that you would at least no longer need a Stoner to get from the fall to "under the ceiling" so that you can start shimmying.

This would require the ceiling to be longer than 64 pixels though. Otherwise, you wouldn't need to assign a Shimmier after the drop; the Jetboarder could cover the distance all by himself. He could also simply fly at a lower altitude than the Shimmier, by dropping any number of pixels further before being assigned a Jetboarder. This is where I see huge potential for backroutes opening up again.

So yes, the Jetboarder could be a valid substitute for the Slider in this scenario to at least allow a transition from Faller to Shimmier. Actually enforcing the use of the Shimmier in such cases would be more difficult than it is now, though, because the Jetboarder in itself would be so powerful.

As said before, I would love the Jetboarder for enabling both transitions - from Shimmier over Jetboarder to Climber (which the Slider wouldn't give us), and the opposite case from Faller over Jetboarder to Shimmier, which both the Slider and the Jetboarder could do. I just see huge backroute flags written all over this...

[IchoTolot]

Since the Jetboarder moves strictly horizontally, terrain modifications would not be required to make a Glider in an updraft work vs. making the Jetboarder itself work.

I still think the climber updraft replacement is very easy to accomplish and that still leaves swimmer, shimmier and jumper as totally replacable through it. The whole updraft replacement just does not hold up in any case. Updrafts are not the norm and a lot of people won't start plastering their levels with them just they can replace one skill.

And indeed, I see the Jetboarder creating a lot of backroutes.

That is still no very big point against it as you can always fix backroutes if they occur. You at most need to be a little bit more careful when designing here. Also there is no evidence that this is even the case in the first place and can only be shown when we actually got the skill.
I would not rule out a skill based on possible backroute potential. Giving away the solution is far far worse.

It's the constantly-available option of assigning this skill anywhere in mid-air. This translates to "play this level at whatever pixel of altitude you choose!" Especially when hatches are at the top of levels, which is quite common.

And exactly that makes the skill powerful and not redundant. I rather have a more versitile skill and a few extra backroute possibilities to think about.

You would still have to turn the lemming around somehow..... The important point is that you would at least no longer need a Stoner to get from the fall to "under the ceiling" so that you can start shimmying.

Try the cloner. Fall --> jet boarder --> clone --> shimmy

[Strato Incendus]

I still think the climber updraft replacement is very easy to accomplish and that still leaves swimmer, shimmier and jumper as totally replacable through it. The whole updraft replacement just does not hold up in any case. Updrafts are not the norm and a lot of people won't start plastering their levels with them just they can replace one skill.

It's not about "how many existing skills could potentially be replaced with updrafts if you wanted to" (as you said, quite a lot). It's about whether another new skill is worth adding if there are already a bunch of skills doing similar things, and one of them can use updrafts to do it.

As I admitted, the two-Builder-gap is probably the strongest example case in the Jetboarder's favour. I'm just not sure whether it's sufficient. Now we could get bogged down in the question of how many 2-3-Builder-wide gaps actually need to be that wide for the solution to work... My main argument for wider Builder gaps would be "I want to make them Jumper-proof". But then again, the Jetboarder is precisely about isolating one lemming by getting him over a gap without building... so if that's what I want to do, I would currently go with a smaller gap (1 Builder long) and use a Jumper for isolating the worker. When I close the gap later for the crowd, it doesn't really matter anymore whether it requires 1, 2, or 3 Builders to do so.

I would not rule out a skill based on possible backroute potential. Giving away the solution is far far worse.

With the emphasis on "potential". An actual backroute is always worse in my book than giving away parts of the intended solution (because a backroute removes the need to even look for the intended solution in the first place). Otherwise I would probably never use one-way arrows, because they give away from which side you have to use a destructive skill. But preventing somebody from assigning that same destructive skill from the other side is more important to me, because that would be a backroute. Therefore, disabling existing backroutes > giving away parts of the solution.

While I agree we shouldn't reject a skill based on mere fear of possible backroutes, we should think about the specific ways how this skill could be "reigned in" in a given level where it's being used: How would we prevent a Jetboarder from going off on a shortcut path at whatever altitude he chooses?

I foresee a lot of long, vertical steel walls - regular walls won't be enough, because once the board is stuck in those, the former Jetboarder can still start bashing / fencing / mining / digging / bombing into them.

And where you don't want terrain to cut off Jetboarder paths, I see a lot of vertical fire traps, like the lightnings from the Sky and the laser beams from the Metal tilesets.

Like you say about updrafts, I think having to place these vertical fire traps in levels can make them pretty ugly. And I did already have to do so on several of my Pit Lems levels, to cut off Platformer shortcuts. (Which are probably most comparable in this situation, since they also move strictly horizontally).

Try the cloner. Fall --> jet boarder --> clone --> shimmy

Yes, I know; I already mentioned the cloner in the quote, you just (I assume accidentally) shortened it away.