[DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types

[Strato Incendus]

I happen to just have created a Space level featuring a black hole, with one-way fields simulating its gravity from the sides, updrafts simulating it from below... and yes, downdrafts from the top would definitely be nice to complete the picture!

We'd have to ask ourselves though to what extent Gliders would move differently inside downdrafts, since down is their natural direction of movement. Would downdrafts allow them to descend at a steeper angle?

[namida]

No-effect animations: Why? This is just lying to the player, something we've agreed again and again is not NL's philosophy. If something visible happens in response to a trigger, it should have an effect.

1. It's already possible to do this anyway, at least in single-use form. Just use an unlock button, on a level that doesn't have locked exits. It could probably also be done with some creative use of teleporters and receivers. (Please don't actually do this. Wait until the feature is properly implemented.)
2. We accept animated or static-graphic no-effect objects, I don't see much difference between that and this. Of course, both can be abused, but that falls on style creators not to do so - it should be clear that this is a decorative object.
3. Especially on levels without locked exits (and thus no other case that could explain this behaviour), the fact that the lemming just keeps walking past would be a strong indicator that this is a no-effect animation.



Anyway, I've updated the first post with most of the suggestions. A few of them fall under the new "catch-many" clause that I honestly can't believe I even need to mention: "Anything that is not an object" is, while perhaps not rejected outright, this topic is not the place to discuss it. This includes things like multiple colors / groups of lemmings, screen wrap, Karoshi, etc. Those should only be discussed in this topic if they directly relate to a proposal for a new object type - keeping in mind that any object type that's only suitable for use in conjunction with a new mechanic is very likely to fall under "too limited in use" and/or "too complex" anyway. (Side note, Karoshi is not going to happen. Zombies had excellent potential without breaking any normal rules - just adding new ones. Wrap is ultimately not really a gimmick in the form it's being proposed to be restored in; it's more just allowing a different map shape rather than the standard finite-sized rectangle. On the other hand, Karoshi is objectively a gimmick that twists the normal rules.)

[WillLem]

Just wanting to re-open this discussion.

I'm particularly interested in the idea of lemming-specific entrance hatches and exits. To some extent, this can be set up by using limited-number exits, but going a step further to incorporate 2-Player-style gameplay where certain exits only allow certain lems through would, I think, be a really interesting way forward...

[namida]

Just wanting to re-open this discussion.

I'm particularly interested in the idea of lemming-specific entrance hatches and exits. To some extent, this can be set up by using limited-number exits, but going a step further to incorporate 2-Player-style gameplay where certain exits only allow certain lems through would, I think, be a really interesting way forward...

Permanent-skill-only exits will not be happening, if that's what you're referencing. If you just mean as in Blue vs Green lemmings like in 2P mode, with no other differences - as per the post above yours, this topic isn't the place to discuss that, as it's not an object type. It might need to involve a new object type, or rather, a new setting on existing object types; but the object type is not the primary "new" thing it brings. (At any rate, it's also very unlikely to happen - without even starting to consider any technical considerations, how do you propose it would work visually, keeping in mind there's a limited color space for recoloring and much of it is already used?)

[WillLem]

Permanent-skill-only exits will not be happening, if that's what you're referencing.

No, I didn't mean that...

If you just mean as in Blue vs Green lemmings like in 2P mode, with no other differences

Yes, this is what I meant!

this topic isn't the place to discuss that, as it's not an object type.

Ah, right...

At any rate, it's also very unlikely to happen - without even starting to consider any technical considerations, how do you propose it would work visually, keeping in mind there's a limited color space for recoloring and much of it is already used?

I'd suggest looking again at the recolouring scheme/ How about this:

Default Normal lems: Hair colour A and clothes colour X
Default Athlete lems: Hair colour A and clothes colour Y
Default Neutral lems: Hair colour A and clothes colour Z

Alternative Normal lems: Hair colour B and clothes colour X
Alternative Athlete lems: Hair colour B and clothes colour Y
Alternative Neutral lems: Hair colour B and clothes colour Z

This way, it's always clear which lems are Athletes and which are Neutrals by their clothes, and then the hair colour can be changed for alternative-exit lems. These colours could be represented as flags above the exits, as with 2P.

If this seems way too complicated, then maybe it would be best not to do this at all, but to have a look at implementing a straight-up 2-Player mode instead... I think that's really what I'm hoping for, when I actually think about it.

This mode could then have 2 distinct colour sets (e.g. green hair & blue clothes for one player, and pink hair & purple clothes for the other player), which then get swapped for athletes as per the usual routine.

Neutrals and zombies could simply not be featured in 2P mode, which would sort that problem out...

[Strato Incendus]

Two different lemming sprites on one level is something I already requested - I referred to it as sprite mixing. I didn't even want to use it for 2-player levels, but simply to have e.g. male and female lemmings on one level (default & Lemminas, fot example). This was already rejected.

Implementing a 2-player mode on top of that seems like way much more effort, so I doubt that's going to happen.

[namida]

If this seems way too complicated, then maybe it would be best not to do this at all, but to have a look at implementing a straight-up 2-Player mode instead... I think that's really what I'm hoping for, when I actually think about it.

Local 2P is not impossible, but I doubt there's enough demand to make that happen. There's also the consideration of how to handle input for two players - I'm not sure if NL would be able to directly use two mice, or if we'd need to put one player on keyboard or joystick input (which would likely put them at a disadvantage).

Networked 2P is not going to happen. I wouldn't know where to even start with implementing that.

[WillLem]

Local 2P is not impossible, but I doubt there's enough demand to make that happen.

If it is possible to have NL be controlled by two mice, I'd definitely put in a vote for local 2P. The ability to make and play levels with friends and family would be ace.

Networked 2P is not going to happen. I wouldn't know where to even start with implementing that.

Didn't Crane mention that he'd look into it? This would obviously be ideal, as we'd be able to play Lemmings with people on the forums.

[namida]

As a potential solution to the issue of Only-On-Terrain leading to misleading designs, I'd like to propose an object type "Paint" (perhaps there's a better name for it). This would essentially be a no-effect object that also has the "only on terrain" effect. Then, the only-on-terrain effect itself, would be removed, so it can only be done through these kind of objects.

[Apjjm]

Here are some ideas i've had that could be interesting with a bit more of the details worked out - I can't say I've put huge amounts of thought into these but they felt interesting enough to share.

Linker/Unlinker

Spoiler

All lemmings that pass through the linker become 'linked'. A skill assignment to any linked lemming is applied to all linked lemmings simulatenously.
An unlinker removes the linked status from a lemming.

In the case of multiple linkers It would be simpler if there is only one linked state, rather than seperate groups for each linker.

Examples:

• Get lemmings to the linker so you can make them climbers with 1 skill
• Blocker / walker assignments to turn batches around
• You need to reach the unlinker before you assign the bomber otherwise all the lemmings get the assignment, which would fail the save requirement.

Fuser

Spoiler

Object that combines two lemmings into one, giving the resulting lemming the sum of the permanent skills on the input lemmings.

Perhaps the fuser could hold a lemming until a second lemming enters to be fused.
Where the skills would be mutually exclusive the fuser would skip over that second lemming until one that can be fused reaches the object.

Toggle trap / water area

Spoiler

Be able to link a button to this type of trap / water area. This could serve a similar purpose to the toggle door/bridge but doesn't require the solid terrain to change. In the case of the water area, all the toggleable water would interpolate to 0 height over a X seconds when the buttons are hit. The draining behaviour could introduce a requirement to delay lemmings as part of the puzzle.

Eraser object

Spoiler

If you want to use a decorative object but not the full object. Would behave much like erase for terrain does but for objects. For clarity maybe only allow this to be applied to decorative objects and not objects with functionality?

Edit: Unless it also affects the trigger. This could be used to create water in V shapes (e.g. water supported by the stairs in the brick set), and one way walls with non-square edges. It probably shouldn't be usable on traps.

Editor only object

Spoiler

A type of objects that specifies it is only for use by the editor.

These could be used to create objects that show things like builder bridges, basher tunnels, skill assignment markers etc. Perople could create their own objects like this to bring in level plans made externally. The editor could do various things with this set of objects - the player would just need to know to ignore a certain type of object.

[namida]

A type of objects that specifies it is only for use by the editor.

These could be used to create objects that show things like builder bridges, basher tunnels, skill assignment markers etc. Perople could create their own objects like this to bring in level plans made externally. The editor could do various things with this set of objects - the player would just need to know to ignore a certain type of object.

Something along these lines is already on my todo list. This would purely be an editor feature (so it wouldn't be "at the cost of losing another object type"). EDIT: And this is now implemented as of editor V1.22.

[namida]

Hasn't been much discussion around new ideas for a while, so let's start cutting out some of the ones that have already been presented. I've put the first poll up.

I haven't included paints in this poll, as I feel that it would work best as a replacement for "Only On Terrain", which in turn should be its own discussion rather than just part of a discussion about object types.

(Side note, I've added the Linker and Fuser from Apjjm's post to "willing to consider", and the Eraser to "rejected" - too messy, and too open to abuse. The toggle idea is already on the list in a more-generic form; the specifics of it can be discussed later. I'm not very keen on the Linker, though - it feels like it has a lot of potential to be really finnicky - so I'm not too sure it's going to get very far. The Fuser on the other hand, I definitely see potential in that one.)

[WillLem]

Thanks for putting the poll up. Is the idea of a permanent-skill-remover still being considered?

Also, what about colour-specific exits? This kind of led to a discussion about a 2-Player mode, but - that aside - are the exits themselves still something that could happen?

[namida]

Permanent skill remover already got put under "strong contenders", so it doesn't need to be in this poll.

And as for the multi-color things, I'm fairly sure I've stated in general that it won't be happening as a whole (and if not - it won't; just the concern of how to handle it visually in a way that's clear and fair rules it out alone, without going into any considerations of how useful it is and/or how messy it would be to implement), and at any rate:

A few of them fall under the new "catch-many" clause that I honestly can't believe I even need to mention: "Anything that is not an object" is, while perhaps not rejected outright, this topic is not the place to discuss it. This includes things like multiple colors / groups of lemmings, screen wrap, Karoshi, etc.

[namida]

Poll results ordered from most to least votes:

1. (9 votes) Portals - An always-active teleporter (similar to how fire is always-active compared to a regular trap).
2. (7 votes) Toggle Buttons - Buttons that turn on / off another object (or a barrier or bridge).
3. (6 votes) No-Assignment Field - An area which prevents skill assignments to any lemming inside it. A lemming already performing a skill while entering would continue to do so; only the *assignment* is blocked.
4. (6 votes) Permanent Skill Applier - An object that adds permanent skills to lemmings.
5. (4 votes) State Changer - An object that turns lemmings into Zombies or Neutrals, or turns such lemmings back into regular ones.
6. (4 votes) Downdraft - A "reverse updraft" that increases fall speed and reduces safe fallable distance.
7. (3 votes) Trampoline - An object which safely breaks a lemming's fall, turning them into a Jumper on impact; and could potentially also have this effect on walkers.
8. (2 votes) Fuser - Combines two lemmings with permanent skills into a single one with the combined skillset.
9. (1 vote) Diagonal One-Way Arrows - Exact properties to be determined, but similar in spirit to existing OWAs.
10. (1 vote) Linker / Unlinker - An object that "entangles" lemmings, making it so that a skill assigned to a linked lemming is applied to all linked lemmings.

I'm going to consider 4 votes the cutoff, and rule out now anything that scored below that. Further discussion of those that got 4+ votes will come later.