[DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types

[namida]

The first post in this topic stated V12.11.X would be the earliest any new object types would be implemented. I have now decided that no new object types will come in 12.11.X, so instead the earliest (and probably exact) version that they'll show up in, if any go ahead, will be 12.13.X.

[Strato Incendus]

I'm completely fine with that!

If any of these objects are ever going to be implemented at all, from those still eligible as contenders...

Willing to consider
- Portals (teleporters that are constant rather than triggered; ie: a portal is to a teleporter, what a fire object is to a triggered trap)
- Toggle buttons or switches (perhaps with a limited scope on what they can toggle; but this could possibly include terrain - with the catch that any toggleable terrain must be steel)
- No-assignment field
- Permanent skill assigner
- Zombifier / Neutral-ifier (and/or reversals thereof)
- Downdraft
- Paint (specific object type for only-on-terrain effect, to replace that effect in general)

Strong contenders
- Permanent skill remover
- No-effect triggered animations (this one will happen unless there's significant opposition to it)

I'd only really be interested in Portals and Toggle buttons / switches, as both would allow for more Lemmings-Revolution level design.

And maybe permanent skill assigners and removers, which would allow for level design in style of the puzzle game Star Wars: Pit Droids.
Interestingly though, I'd actually care more about permanent skill assigners than removers. Because basically, that would be a halfway reintroduction of instant pickup skills , albeit just for permanent (=athletic) skills, not e.g. Builders.

But I can do without any of those, as long as we get to keep all the new four skills!

[WillLem]

I'd only really be interested in Portals and Toggle buttons / switches, as both would allow for more Lemmings-Revolution level design.
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But I can do without any of those, as long as we get to keep all the new four skills!

+1 for this, but I'd definitely add Dezombifiers/Deneutralifiers to that.

[mobius]

no assignment field, state changer, toggle buttons, linker


no assignment field sounds like it has a lot of potential for backroute fixing, possibly.

State changer; not so sure of but it sounds interesting. Same with Linker; hard for me to imagine the uses/potential of this one but sounds like it could be really cool. Would need to see it in action.

I don't have enough experience with teleporters to have a good input on "Portals".
My gut feeling on this matter is (I've said this I think long ago) is teleporters should function this way and just get rid of the 'single lemmings teleporter' which I never liked much.

IMO; skill remover has more potential than skill assigners. I'm not too interested in those; for reasons of similarity to the pick up skills and basically same reasons I gave for approving of the removal of the 'radiation and slow freeze' objects.

A permanent skill remover on the other hand would do something which can't be done at all otherwise (and never has been to my knowledge).

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apologies if this has been discussed but it seems not so I'll mention this for discussion.

disappearing terrain OR timed doors

These seem very different at first but in a way sort of accomplish similar things so one may be better in implementing than the other rather than both. Lemmings Revolution has both so examples can be seen there.

disappearing terrain - for every lemming that walks over; 1 pixel line disappears (permanently); this terrain cannot be destroyed with destructive skills (for obvious reasons). There are aspects of this Revolution didn't explore; like what happens when a climber climbs up disappearing terrain? or just walking into it from the side?

timed doors - has a number and for every lemming that passes that counter goes down. When it reaches zero the 'door' (also indestructible) closes, blocking off future lemmings from passing.

Both of these can serve various but similar functions; of limited one or several lemmings into a specific area of the level or trapping one or several lemmings into a specific area of the level, or creating a hazard (opening up a path to death).

[namida]

A permanant skill remover on the other hand would do something which can't be done at all otherwise (and never has been to my knowledge).

There was a gimmick at one point that made the permanent skills one-shot; ie: after one transition to the state the skill provides, the lemming would then lose the skill. (You could of course assign it again, if you had any more copies of it.) It was definitely among the ones with higher potential to create good puzzles.

[WillLem]

no assignment field sounds like it has a lot of potential for backroute fixing, possibly.

This is one of the reasons I don't like the idea of this object, to be honest. A perfectly backroute-proof level, to my mind, is just as arbitrary as a trivial "Just (Skill)" level; it might as well be a tutorial level. The first 7 levels of Lemmings are about as backroute-proof as that game gets!

In other words, it's not giving the player any options other than to "paint by the numbers" and follow the exact intentions of the level designer. Levels like these can, on occasion, be quite fun if they happen to reveal a certain trick or if they have one of those "aha!" moments when you realise how to traverse a particular obstacle, but too many of them can just start to feel like you're following instructions rather than playing a game.

I realise that this is more of a mini-rant about backroute fixing than a comment on the object itself, so I'll just add to this that a no-assignment field is likely to be simply treated as another trap to be avoided, albeit one that doesn't kill the lemming.

Sorry for jumping on your comment there, mobius! I think it's just something I felt needed to be said

[Proxima]

This is one of the reasons I don't like the idea of this object, to be honest. A perfectly backroute-proof level, to my mind, is just as arbitrary as a trivial "Just (Skill)" level; it might as well be a tutorial level. The first 7 levels of Lemmings are about as backroute-proof as that game gets!

In other words, it's not giving the player any options other than to "paint by the numbers" and follow the exact intentions of the level designer. Levels like these can, on occasion, be quite fun if they happen to reveal a certain trick or if they have one of those "aha!" moments when you realise how to traverse a particular obstacle, but too many of them can just start to feel like you're following instructions rather than playing a game.

This is why I think it's important to distinguish the concepts of "backroute" and "unintended solution". There isn't a sharp dividing line, but the way I've expressed it before is that a backroute feels more like bypassing the puzzle rather than engaging with it. If a level has a glaring backroute (and doesn't get updated to fix it) then solvers who spot the backroute first, in most cases, won't bother continuing to search for the intended solution (especially since sometimes there are trick levels where something that looks like a backroute actually is intended) and so they won't get that satisfying "aha" moment and won't get to appreciate the elegance and cleverness of the level's design.

Some great levels have just one possible way to solve them, like "Fall and no life" from Genesis (Manic 20 in Redux). Others can have a variety of solutions and still be excellent levels, like Redux's version of "Let's go camping". (And since the Genesis original of that level was plagued by an extremely obvious backroute, that one is a very clear case where fixing the backroute made it a much better level.)

[Strato Incendus]

There was a gimmick at one point that made the permanent skills one-shot; ie: after one transition to the state the skill provides, the lemming would then lose the skill. (You could of course assign it again, if you had any more copies of it.) It was definitely among the ones with higher potential to create good puzzles.

Indeed; it basically turned Swimmers into Kayakers, Gliders into Icarus Wings, and Climbers into pseudo-Jumpers. ^^ And this type of restriction of only getting past certain obstacles once, instead of "skill assigned once, now that lemming is good for the rest of the level", is precisely one of those limitations that make it easier to build puzzles around. Suddenly, other permanent skills feel similarly broken as the Disarmer, who gets past all traps instead of just past the first trap he encounters.

[namida]

As a tradeoff for the decision against Wrap, I've bumped Portals up to strong contenders - as indeed, there is good puzzle potential in these features, and Portals can cover most of it.

[WillLem]

As a tradeoff for the decision against Wrap, I've bumped Portals up to strong contenders

This definitely seems like a fair trade.

Will portals be able to have very long trigger areas, so that they can simulate wrap?

[namida]

Yes, you could even make a resizable one. Just make sure the visual is very clear on what's going on.

[WillLem]

Yes, you could even make a resizable one. Just make sure the visual is very clear on what's going on.

But how will the trigger area know where to put the lemming?

[namida]

...That's a good point that I didn't think of. Okay, resizable ones might not be such a great idea...

[WillLem]

When I did those infamous "simulated wrap" levels, I did increase the size of the teleporter's trigger area, but I had to place quite a lot of them in rows and columns along each edge of the screen so that the lem would re-spawn in (more or less) the same position relative to where they entered the teleporter on the opposite edge.

It's not a process I'd want to repeat in a hurry! Great fun to experiment with, but highly impractical (and potentially misleading) for general level design purposes.

I'm not sure how trigger areas work, but I'm guessing it would need to be able to "know" the exact XY position of the lemming in order to place it (relatively) correctly on the receiving end.

[Dullstar]

One possible solution to the trigger area problem would be to allow the resizing, but to require connected portals to be the same size.