[Discussion][Player] New skill: Laserer

[IchoTolot]

Taking time through terrain doesn't seem to make sense, since it's a laser rather than a drill. It should be instant - ZAP!

I havent seen a laser in any movie or series that cuts everything instantly. Even in real life: It highly depends on the thickness of the material and the power of the laser! So I through the ball right back that always instant makes no sense!

It moves through empty terrain with lightspeed, but cutting through something takes at least a short bit if the material is thick enough.

[ericderkovits]

yes, that is why I also voted for no. 2, instant thru empty space, and take a little time thru terrain.

[namida]

Alright, well it seems that the overall preference is enough in favor of "cross empty space instantly, take time to burn through terrain". This does mean a new question arises of the laser's duration - should there be a time limit, or should it keep going until either the laser reaches the length cap (or level edge) or hits steel?

While we get some starting points for that via discussion, I've put up a new poll regarding the angle, mostly focused on the two options that seem the most worthwhile based on discussion so far.

[Dullstar]

1:1 has the potential for using a laser blaster for both stopping a shimmier or for allowing it to pass through the obstacle, something that isn't currently possible to do because of the miner cancellation physics.

6:1 can only stop a shimmier (which can already be done with an extra shimmier + bomber), which IMO makes it little more than a steeper fencer with a range gimmick.

[Simon]

Time limit to cut short before length limit: Theoretically interesting, you could even make shadows that compute this -- but I fear that this is much harder to plan for both creator and player. I would stick to a length limit, then you can have rulers, too.

L2 beam extends in steps, once per second, cutting through air instantly in one step, which still looks like it's non-instant. I suppose you want to extend the beam every frame, in smaller steps. At least I recommend to extend every frame in smaller steps, unlike L2.

I'm 50:50 whether we should cut through air instantly, which physically makes sense for a laser, or merely faster than through terrain, e.g., 6 diagonal pixels/frame, because in video games, laser beams are fat and travel in slow motion.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

I'm mostly staying out of this since whatever is decided, laser blaster is my least favourite of the remaining candidates, and it makes sense that the people who really want the skill should have the most say in how it works.

Still, I feel I should make my views clear while the question is open.

The angle of the laser blaster affects how valuable the skill is in itself and how distinct it is from other skills, and these should be the main features of the discourse around it. It's absurd that something as minor as the shimmier interaction has seemingly become so prominent as to become the main deciding factor for some people.

A 6:1 laser blaster is not "little more than a steeper fencer", it's a much different skill with different mechanics and use cases. It's far more distinct from the fencer than the fencer is from the basher.

As I've said previously, I would favour any other gradient over 1:1 because the latter is too close to the fencer. I think even 2:1 is distinct enough for that not to matter. I certainly don't believe that steeper is better.

Mostly out of a mixture of aesthetic and functional considerations, my top preference would be for 3:1 or 4:1, and I think it's definitely premature to reject these without even putting them on the poll (though as they are very close to 6:1, if the poll is redone to add them, then we should be allowed to vote for more than one option to avoid them "splitting the vote").

[Strato Incendus]

1:1 has the potential for using a laser blaster for both stopping a shimmier or for allowing it to pass through the obstacle, something that isn't currently possible to do because of the miner cancellation physics.

Thanks for pointing this out!

I always thought this was one of the downsides of the 45°-angle - that it couldn't stop Shimmiers, even if you wanted to. But of course, it can - you just have to shoot the Laser Blaster in the opposite direction.

Then the slope in the ceiling is created above the Shimmier's head, instead of in front of it. Thus, instead of shimmying into the tunnel created by the Laser Blaster and continuing, the Shimmier reaches the bottom of the slope created by the Laser Blaster, finds empty air above himself, and lets go of the ceiling.

Thus, I think this is definitely the more versatile option.

My only argument in favour of the 6:1 range would be that it's closer to the original Laser Blaster (which was purely vertical), while still being more widely applicable because Walkers can use it (instead of just Climbers & Floaters).
The 45° tunnel can be used by both Walkers and Shimmiers, but it's less similar to the classic L2 Laser Blaster, and indeed more similar to the NeoLemmix Fencer.

Climbers can of course use both types of tunnels, too, but the mere fact that they are Climbers doesn't change anything about that behaviour.

[namida]

Mostly out of a mixture of aesthetic and functional considerations, my top preference would be for 3:1 or 4:1, and I think it's definitely premature to reject these without even putting them on the poll (though as they are very close to 6:1, if the poll is redone to add them, then we should be allowed to vote for more than one option to avoid them "splitting the vote").

The "Other" option is there for that, in case there's wider support for them than I've thought. At the time of this reply, no one has yet voted for it - though the other two options are exactly an even split. (Of course, the poll is just one factor; reasonings will be taken into account too, and there's always the "put my foot down and just pick one" option if all else fails. I should do some mockups too, although do not expect an actual experimental for both angles.)

[WillLem]

I'm strongly against a time/length limit for the laser blaster, I think it should continue through the terrain until it hits steel or the edge of the level.

One potential use case is that it can destroy multiple areas of terrain, even with space in between, if it is simply allowed to carry on through everything. This also makes it more distinguishable from any other destructive skill. I also see this as being more consistent with the concept of a laser beam.

Perhaps it could even destroy steel as well! OK, that may be going too far, but I definitely think it should continue through anything it can destroy, until it reaches steel or the very edge of the level.

As for the angle, I voted 1:1 simply because I agree that compatibility with other skills is important, but to be fair I'd be equally happy with 6:1.

And finally, as for speed, if the decision is for it to take time through terrain then I'd vote for it to be fairly quick, about 2x the speed of a falling lem.

[namida]

I'm strongly against a time/length limit for the laser blaster, I think it should continue through the terrain until it hits steel or the edge of the level.

Two issues to be aware of here:
- This could potentially mean that a laser blaster continues for a VERY long time, if the level is quite large. Doubly so in light of that it will almost certainly take time to burn through terrain. This is not necesserially a bad thing.
- The tradeoff for an infinite-range laser blaster being accepted would be wrap is ruled out. Those two mechanics combined would get far too messy (on the implementation side, not even thinking about gameplay concerns). "Infinite time, but capped range" does not have this issue, though.

[Strato Incendus]

I think the range is capped in L2, so that's what I would support . In L2, this is relevant because of the increased fall height, even though there is no wrap.

And I would definitely rather see wrap coming back (or at least maintain the possibility of it coming back) than having an infinite range Laser Blaster.

[namida]

Okay so, regarding the angle, this is a tricky one. 1:1 is winning, but there's enough support for 6:1 that I don't feel I can call it on votes alone.

However, reading the various discussions around it - and despite initially favoring 6:1 myself - I do think 1:1 has slightly more potential, in particular due to the shimmier interaction. Very long 6:1 slopes could also get a bit awkward from a gameplay point of view, due to constant ascender / faller (depending on direction) transitions; 1:1 will be nicer. (2:1 would be okay too in this regard; 3:1 and steeper start having problems. However, 2:1 loses the Shimmier interaction.)

I don't intend to start work on the laser-blaser exp just yet (Slider is the current focus there), so discussion can continue, but short of a very strong argument or a change in the general opinion, it looks like 1:1 will be the way to go.

[GigaLem]

isn't 6:1 too tall for the lemmings? IIRC, the highest a normal lemming can ascend is 5 pixels

[namida]

isn't 6:1 too tall for the lemmings? IIRC, the highest a normal lemming can ascend is 5 pixels

Nope, it's 6.

[Simon]

1:1 has the horizontal range and the shimmier interaction.

6:1 makes the most unique hole, even before considering the fencer.

2:1 was the original proposal, to give the laser horizontal range at all. But if that's the primary goal, then 1:1. The question is if 6:1 is better than 1:1, and I don't have a strong opinion with 6:1 and 1:1. Probably weak preference for 1:1 for the skill interaction. But I haven't thought about this much. I remember thinking about the 6:1 laser blaster as a replacement for the tunneller (steep 6:1 upwards continuous terrain remover with lemming always the tip of the tunnel).

-- Simon