[Discussion][Player] Range constructive skills: Thrower/Archer/Roper (Potential)

[Strato Incendus]

The Spear Thrower skill from Lemmings 2: The Tribes has recently come up again in the debate about what should be the final skill, as you might remember. Since we had debates about the potential of the Slider and the Runner, I think it's only fair to have this discussion about the Spear Thrower as well (even if I myself may not be a particular fan of it, I'm still the one opening this thread).

In principle, I do like the idea of creating terrain at a distance - that's why I'm grouping the "range constructive skills" from L2 together here. But my favourite ways to accomplish this in L2 are the Archer and the Roper. Since both require double assignment (select the lemming, select the trajectory), these have been ruled out by namida, unless we would find a way to give them a fixed angle at which they operate.

This leaves the Thrower (who throws a little ball that sticks to walls) or the Spear Thrower (who throws a horizontal line with a slight angle and 1 pixel in width).

(Range destructive skills, such as the Bazooker / Mortar and Laser Blaster, should be discussed in a separate thread, because at this point we have to assume we're only going to get either one or the other, since there is only one final skill left that is supposed to be added to NeoLemmix before namida wraps it up.)


I've been playing around with the Spear Thrower a little yesterday, and here's one interesting thing I've found out about how it behaves in L2:

- if you throw a spear into a wall and then climb it up, the lemming will actually climb through the spear from the bottom; but when he hits the ceiling and falls back down, he will walk on top of the spear

This can create some interesting dynamics: So far, when you want to turn a Climber around on a wall, you either have to bomb into the wall or stone at the top. Both requires another lemming to make it to that same wall, either by also being a Climber, or by falling down said wall from above. Whatever you choose, if we take the Stoner for comparison (since it is also a constructive skill), the barrier it creates is identical from both sides: Once there is a Stoner on the wall, Climbers will land on top of it when falling back down from the top, but they also will no longer be able to get up this wall from below, because the Stoner makes the wall uneven.

The question is: Would a lemming climbing through a 1-pixel-thick piece of terrain (as the Spear Thrower creates it) be consistent with current NeoLemmix physics?

[Proxima]

The question is: Would a lemming climbing through a 1-pixel-thick piece of terrain (as the Spear Thrower creates it) be consistent with current NeoLemmix physics?

No. A climber on a straight wall will be stopped by a single terrain pixel jutting out from the wall. Then again, as has been said many times, skills inspired by L2 don't have to behave exactly as they do in L2.

[Strato Incendus]

I agree. By this logic, in turn it should be possible to transition into a Shimmier at the bottom side of a spear sticking in a wall.

So now it's about coming up with examples for which such a throwing skill in general could be useful.

Some corner cases to consider:
- if you throw a spear through a teleporter trigger, will it get teleported elsewhere?
- if a spear lands in water, does it keep its trajectory and land at the bottom of the pond? Does it swim on the water surface instead, i.e. form a bridge or at least a stepping platform that e.g. a Jumper could land on to make it across the pond?
- if a spear lands inside a fire area, does it dissolve (because it's most likely made of wood)? Or does it remain intact and can thus serve as a bridge across the fire?
- can a spear hit exit buttons?

While the intuitive answer to many of these questions might be "no", remember that throwing anything solid that isn't a lemming itself would be completely new to NeoLemmix.

If all of these answers are no, however, that would reduce the versatility of the Spear Thrower - and therefore its range of applicability - drastically.

[ccexplore]

I've been playing around with the Spear Thrower a little yesterday, and here's one interesting thing I've found out about how it behaves in L2:

- if you throw a spear into a wall and then climb it up, the lemming will actually climb through the spear from the bottom; but when he hits the ceiling and falls back down, he will walk on top of the spear

That's a bit surprising.  Are we talking regular climber or rock climber?  Any way to see some screenshots or a video (eg. angle of spear)?

With a rock climber and a suitably angled spear, I could see the rock climber climb around the angled underside of the spear to reach the top side, but that's quite different from literally going through the spear.

If the spear touches the wall low enough, I can see a regular climber ignoring that low point of intersection when it started climbing (ie. its head is already above the spear when it started climbing), but that also doesn't sound like what you are describing either.

I think most people would likely consider the described Lemmings 2 behavior unexpected and buggy.  The only way it makes sense is if in Lemmings 2 and unlike Lemmings 1, they more generally added some overhang tolerance for the regular climber so that it doesn't fall as easily.

If all of these answers are no, however, that would reduce the versatility of the Spear Thrower - and therefore its range of applicability - drastically.

Maybe, but it doesn't really need all those extra corner cases to be useful IMO.

But it's interesting you point that out.  Even in Lemmings 2 there is at least one interesting interaction I know of, that makes sense in real life but might not be necessarily expected by the player:

major spoilers esp if you plan to play one of my superhard custom L2 levels

A traveling spear can pop the ballooner's balloon!

[IchoTolot]

Some corner cases to consider:
- if you throw a spear through a teleporter trigger, will it get teleported elsewhere?
- if a spear lands in water, does it keep its trajectory and land at the bottom of the pond? Does it swim on the water surface instead, i.e. form a bridge or at least a stepping platform that e.g. a Jumper could land on to make it across the pond?
- if a spear lands inside a fire area, does it dissolve (because it's most likely made of wood)? Or does it remain intact and can thus serve as a bridge across the fire?
- can a spear hit exit buttons?

Especially the first one is quite the rare corner case.

Generally the spear interacts with terrain only and does not interact with objects as this would make the skill unnessesarily complicated. It already has enough going for itself.

So my answers would be:

- The spear itself can not travel through a teleporter.
- It just travels through water to the bottom of the pond.
- It does not get incinerated by fire.
- It cannot hit exit buttons.

To sum things up from the main topic:

Constructive: Builder, Platformer, Stacker, Stoner (4)
Destructive: Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer, Bomber (5)
Movement: Walker, Jumper, Shimmier, Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer (7)
Other:
* Blocker could be considered a non-movement skill, and affects the movement of other lemmings.
* Disarmer is the only skill that interacts directly with traps, putting it in a category of its own.
* Cloner is a unique skill that can duplicate a constructive, destructive or movement skill.

We currently have movement skills the most. As I think Lemmings is more about manipulating terrain, adding another constructive or even destructive skill is the right choice here. On top of that, I think investing too much into parkour skills could lead to us replicating errors L2 made.

We do not have a ranged skill at the moment so the spear thrower adds something we don't have right now.

No double assignment needed for the skill. You assign the skill and the lemming throws/shoots immidietly and the projectile arc begins. For the spear the angle in which the projectile hits terrain determines the shape of the added terrain.
The only thing the player needs to change to aim the skill the the position of the thrower - so where the arc begins -> The precision would be roughly the same as a builder with a skill shadow.
Just imagine a standard throw trajectory if you would throw a stone off a cliff. First you gain heigth then fall down again while the width gain begomes lower and lower changing the angle in the process.
So basically a jumper that does not simply fall straight down after the arc, but still has some width gain left that slowly becomes less over time.

If a spear hits terrain above it will most likely hit at the peak of the arc and create a mostly horizontal terrain piece.
If a spear hits terrain on the same level the angle will most likely be something around 45 degree and creates something like a little upwards ramp for lemmings.
If a spear hits terrain below it will hit at a more extreme angle and create a more steep piece of terrain with less width. The angle will also be a bit more extreme if the spear hits at the very start of the arc.

The ability to construct terrain below the lemming is also an ability we lack right now.


Use cases that I could think of so far:

- Stoners/stackers to create wider platforms or removing them.
- Destructive skills with make a path for the projectile to fly through.
- Create platforms for lemmings to fall on.
- Create terrain to shimmy under it.
- Cloners give the ability to hit the left and right side.
- Providing a floor for an object than is in mid air and next to a wall.
- A diagonal spear on flat ground could enable a platformer to be assigned there.
- A diagonal spear on flat ground could go over a smaller trigger area of a trap/teleporter.
- A vertical spear on the ground (thrown from above) could act as a blockade. This requires the level designer to choose the right height for the thowers platform --> no precision for the player.
- A spear on the ground could enable a delay in terms of a possible basher assignment.
- A diagonal spear on the ground could help a glider to gain enough height to start gliding. Also helpful for a jumper/shimmier.

[Strato Incendus]

That's a bit surprising.  Are we talking regular climber or rock climber?

Good thing you made me double-check that! I was talking about the Rock Climber. However, he doesn't go around the spear, he simply pulls himself through the spear with the Hoister animation.

The regular Climber will simply bump his head on the spear and fall straight down, like when hitting a normal ceiling.

That said, the NeoLemmix climber does now possess some abilities of the Rock Climber, like transitioning into a Shimmier at the ceiling (a regular L2 Climber never dangles from the ceiling, which is the animation you need for the transition to a Shimmier). So it's somewhere in between. Still, I think bumping his head on the spear would be the expected behaviour for the Climber in NeoLemmix; transitioning into a Shimmier would of course be possible one frame before that (since NeoLemmix doesn't use the dangling animation).

Regarding your spoiler:

Spoiler

Cool, I didn't know Spear Thrower and Ballooner interacted in this way! I guess it also works with the Archer? Not only that; it also seems like passing through the balloon flattens the curve of the spear, so that it's more likely to create a horizontal platform.

Anyways, neither of this will be relevant in NeoLemmix, since we probably won't ever get the Ballooner.

[namida]

Posted in the projectile construction skill topic with a discussion regarding range. Said discussion is equally applicable to this topic.

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4770.msg86464#msg86464

[IchoTolot]

The thing that went to my mind: I think a little shrugger at the end of a throw/mortar shot would be good as then it is way easier to throw/mortar with the same lem at the same position again.

[Strato Incendus]

+1 for the Shrugger suggestion.

[namida]

I hadn't considered that myself, but I'm certianly okay with it if it's desired. Note that this might not be included in the initial experimental implementations of the skills.

[namida]

An interesting point that came up on Discord: Should the thrower wait until the projectile has hit, before transitioning to shrugger?

[IchoTolot]

Thinking about it I would say no.

Throw --> Shrug --> Go   (if not interrupted by a trap or so)

[namida]

Video showing semi-implemented projectile skills. "Semi" in that they just disappear on impact rather than creating / removing any terrain.

https://youtu.be/T4oAxkb7vxY

These skills are currently called "Spearer" (constructive) and "Grenader" (destructive). Both names are very much open for debate - and in particular I'm not really a fan of "Spearer" myself, it's just the best placeholder I could think of for now.

[IchoTolot]

I like the idea of the granade!

I would make the arc of the granade way higher though a bit more like the L2 mortar, so it could be used to reach some ceilings as well. A hole in the ceiling could be used to stop shimmiers for example.

A little bit of extra height for the spear could also be good.

Both could also need a bit of extra forwards range. Again, I would rather give them a bit more than less range on both axis as the range is a selling factor of the skill.

[namida]

I would make the arc of the granade way higher though a bit more like the L2 mortar, so it could be used to reach some ceilings as well. A hole in the ceiling could be used to stop shimmiers for example.

A little bit of extra height for the spear could also be good.

I am open to changing the arc in general, but it will remain the case that both have the same arc as each other.

I'm also open to changing the speed (while keeping the same overall arc).