[SUG][PLAYER] Displaying Talismans In-Level

[WillLem]

I've had an idea about how to display talismans in-level that would solve 3 problems:

1) How much space talisman text takes up in the pre-screen

2) Forgetting exactly what the talisman is whilst playing

3) Players missing multiple-talisman levels due to the pre-screen only displaying one at a time (there also may be solutions in which it's possible to get 2 talismans in one go)

So, here it is:

Add 3 talisman icons to the panel, one for each colour (they would only appear when a relevant talisman is present).

When the player clicks on the talisman, it is highlighted, and the relevant criteria for achieving it are immediately applied to the level: time/skill limitations, save requirement, etc. No text is actually required, it simply adjusts the level according to the talisman criteria. Another possibility might be that the player can choose to select all 3 talismans in one go (N.B. this may need to be specified by the level author during editing in case they aren't achievable in combination with one another - so only compatible talismans could be highlighted simultaneously). Or, they may wish to take them on one at a time; either way, at least the player is aware of how many there are to be achieved altogether.

It could also be that doing this restarts the level as well, as it would no doubt need to be played from the beginning due to there being a different solution.

Furthermore, it could also be that if the player clicks the highlighted talisman(s) again, they become unhighlighted and the criteria is reverted back to normal.

In the case of there being more than 3 talismans, then.... well, I guess this idea wouldn't work for that scenario unless someone brainier than me can think of a way to make it work.

EDIT: To reduce confusion for new players, the first time a talisman is selected, a dialog box could popup "This will apply the (Colour) Talisman criteria and restart the level. Do you wish to continue? Yes/No" with a "Do not show this message again" checkbox.

Thoughts?

[Proxima]

I completely agree that we need a better UI for talismans, and this is probably the biggest UI issue still to be solved before we reach the "final" version of NL.

However, there are some obvious problems with your idea. First, there may be more than one talisman of the same colour. Second, changing the level doesn't work for "maximum number of total skills" talismans. Third, restarting the level is intrusive -- especially if the player is just checking the talisman requirements and might have almost finished the level! Finally, it's not clear how to make room for extra panel buttons, and you have to consider both the full and compact skill panels here.

My idea is that there should be a "talisman info" hotkey that brings up a popup window with information on all the talismans for the current level (including rank, requirements, and whether the talisman has been previously achieved).

[WillLem]

My idea is that there should be a "talisman info" hotkey that brings up a popup window with information on all the talismans for the current level (including rank, requirements, and whether the talisman has been previously achieved).

That's a much better idea to be fair. But, there could be a panel button as well - or even just a small graphic near where the timer/lem count is displayed to indicate the presence of a talisman, and how many there are, to prompt the player to check the info.

[Dullstar]

I do think some way of allowing the engine to enforce the talisman restrictions would be helpful when trying to get them, but of course, if the talisman conditions are accomplished while not being enforced, it should still count. It should also be possible to undo the restriction at any time so you can give up on the talisman and simply go for the regular solution without having to restart the level.

This would be particularly useful for some of the harder talisman conditions to keep track of (is the one where you can only assign one skill per lemming still a thing, for example, or was that culled? If it's still around, I certainly wouldn't use it because the UI provides no way of keeping track of which lemmings you've assigned skills to)

[Proxima]

This would be particularly useful for some of the harder talisman conditions to keep track of (is the one where you can only assign one skill per lemming still a thing, for example, or was that culled? If it's still around, I certainly wouldn't use it because the UI provides no way of keeping track of which lemmings you've assigned skills to)

You can see which lemmings have taken skills through the replay editor (my hotkey is E, which I believe is the default). But no, the one-skill-per-lemming and one-lemming-only talismans aren't supported at the moment, which is a pity, as both types can be really good puzzles.

[namida]

Regarding in-level display (preview screen to be discussed elsewhere, in due time), here's a "starting point" for my idea of how this could work.

I'd like to add a hotkey, and maybe even a panel button on the full-size panel, that toggles a "talisman mode". When this mode is active, any skill for which remaining usage is limited will display the skill count in one of two different colors - one color would represent "you can only use this many of this skill due to a limit on this individual skill", the other would be "you can only use this many of this skill due to a total limit". Something similar would apply to save requirements and time limits. Perhaps the max total skill count could also be displayed, when no lemming is mouseovered, in the area where mouseovered lemming info appears.

If a button exists for this on the panel, it could have a different graphic depending on whether there's one talisman or multiple. I'm divided on whether to use a popup menu or a "cycle through the talismans each time the button is clicked" approach; in the latter case, a right click on the button could reset to "no talisman" at all times (whereas a left click, "no talisman" would merely be one of the things it cycles through).

Questions are:
- While a talisman is active, should the player outright be prevented from going over the talisman's requirements?
- If not, should there be some feedback when it occurs?
- Or if so, what happens if the player tries to activate talisman mode when they've already exceeded the requirements for it?

To be clear, activating Talisman Mode would not be a prerequisite to getting the talisman. It'd just be a way to view live, in-game, what the restrictions are and how close you are to them.

[WillLem]

When this mode is active, any skill for which remaining usage is limited will display the skill count in one of two different colors - one color would represent "you can only use this many of this skill due to a limit on this individual skill", the other would be "you can only use this many of this skill due to a total limit".

I don't understand. Do you mean that the skill would display two numbers of different colours...?

I'm divided on whether to use a popup menu or a "cycle through the talismans each time the button is clicked" approach

+1 for a cycling panel button - I like this idea! It's similar to the idea I had but a much more simple and elegant way of implementing it. I definitely think that the button should animate though, so that it "clicks".

(Incidentally, I also still think that all the buttons should have a "clicked" graphic to give the panel more depth and texture, particularly in hi-res mode. I've suggested it here as part of the 12.10.0 topic).

- If not, should there be some feedback when it occurs?

+1 for this. It seems the simplest solution, and could be represented by something as simple as the talisman button turning red.

[Strato Incendus]

+1. Especially on early ranks, I like to pay attention to talismans, just to make the solutions more interesting. At least when I'm playing other people's levels. My own levels are usually so restrictive in terms of skills provided that I'd rather just have easy puzzles that use up all your skills than open-ended ones that then tell you the actually interesting solution in a footnote as a talisman.

And as WillLem described, this "footnote" character of the talismans is precisely what makes it easy for the player to forget about their requirements while playing - in contrast to skills being subtracted from the panel, or lemmings you're allowed to lose, which are "hard" level requirements that will cause you to lose the level if you violate them.

Thus, if we have the hard requirements visible on the panel, the soft level requirements should be visible there, as well!

[Proxima]

I think that a "talisman mode" could be a workable idea, but personally I would prefer a popup window that gives the requirements in a text block. That could be partly through inertia, but it's also a matter of how I find it easiest to receive and absorb information. I don't want to have to look all over the screen and double-check "is there a limit to X skill? is there a time requirement? is there a max skills requirement?" -- I'd like a simple, concise display of what the requirements are. Conversely, once I've had this information, I personally wouldn't have a problem remembering it -- so I can absolutely see why "talisman mode" would be preferable to players who do prefer the information to be constantly displayed so they don't have to commit it to memory. Maybe the correct solution is for both to exist.

[WillLem]

Maybe the correct solution is for both to exist.

+1 for both existing!

[namida]

I think that a "talisman mode" could be a workable idea, but personally I would prefer a popup window that gives the requirements in a text block. That could be partly through inertia, but it's also a matter of how I find it easiest to receive and absorb information. I don't want to have to look all over the screen and double-check "is there a limit to X skill? is there a time requirement? is there a max skills requirement?" -- I'd like a simple, concise display of what the requirements are. Conversely, once I've had this information, I personally wouldn't have a problem remembering it -- so I can absolutely see why "talisman mode" would be preferable to players who do prefer the information to be constantly displayed so they don't have to commit it to memory. Maybe the correct solution is for both to exist.

My thoughts is that showing the requirements in a block like that is for the menu. Do you feel it's necessary to be able to access this information in-game, in a way that simply "activate talisman mode once, at the start of the level" doesn't achieve? (Or, that talisman mode alone, under said start-of-level conditions, wouldn't make it clear enough?)

EDIT: On second thought, yeah, I can see situations where this wouldn't be clear enough. So it's more just a question of, do you specifically think it needs to be possible to view the requirements, as a whole, while in-game?

[Proxima]

I'm a little unsure what you're saying here, since in the "New menu design" topic you referred to the level preview screen as a "menu", so I'm not sure whether "showing the requirements in a block like that is for the menu" means the main menu (either via the F4 "display all talismans" function, or moving this to the F2 level list), or the level preview screen.

So, to state things clearly:

* The main menu / F4 / F2 is not enough on its own because often I am playing through a pack in order and want to progress from one level to the next without exiting the flow of play to check this menu.
* The level preview screen is not good enough because it can't cope with complex talisman requirements or multiple talismans per level. In fact, I'd prefer it if we didn't display talisman requirements here at all, because that forces a clumsy layout on the majority of levels that don't have a talisman.
* I would prefer a popup window over talisman mode for learning the requirements while in-game, because I don't like the idea of having to check twelve different places to see if a requirement is displayed. I am pretty sure that if both a popup window and talisman mode were available, I would never use talisman mode.

[namida]

I'm a little unsure what you're saying here, since in the "New menu design" topic you referred to the level preview screen as a "menu", so I'm not sure whether "showing the requirements in a block like that is for the menu" means the main menu (either via the F4 "display all talismans" function, or moving this to the F2 level list), or the level preview screen.

So, to state things clearly:

* The main menu / F4 / F2 is not enough on its own because often I am playing through a pack in order and want to progress from one level to the next without exiting the flow of play to check this menu.
* The level preview screen is not good enough because it can't cope with complex talisman requirements or multiple talismans per level. In fact, I'd prefer it if we didn't display talisman requirements here at all, because that forces a clumsy layout on the majority of levels that don't have a talisman.
* I would prefer a popup window over talisman mode for learning the requirements while in-game, because I don't like the idea of having to check twelve different places to see if a requirement is displayed. I am pretty sure that if both a popup window and talisman mode were available, I would never use talisman mode.

Okay so - the question of how it should be displayed in the menu (which yes, I am including the preview / postview screens in this - basically, by "menu", I mean everything except while actually playing a level) is a valid one; but this should be discussed in the menu revamp topics. This topic is more about how, if at all, they should be displayed in-game.

Let's suppose a nice way to display talismans on the preview screen is found - perhaps for example, small icons to show that talismans exist, which can be clicked on (or perhaps just mouseovered) to show their actual requirements. Even with this, would you feel an in-game display other than something like the above talisman mode is necessary? If yes - then absolutely, we should look at having such a feature. If no, then let's assume for now that the preview screen will have a nice way of displaying talismans in any new design, and come back to this only if that doesn't turn out to be the case.

[Proxima]

I see what you mean. In that case, I would say that my normal workflow would be to check the talisman requirements from the preview screen before beginning play, and I would usually be able to remember them; so having a convenient way to check the requirements while in-game wouldn't be necessary -- but it would still be preferable, since it would be nice to know the option is there in case I do forget and need to check the requirements (and in the case of complex requirements or multiple talismans, it's not at all far-fetched that I would).

[WillLem]

I definitely like the idea of a cycling talisman button on the panel, and the idea of an in-game talisman mode, but how are the requirements to be displayed in this mode?

When this mode is active, any skill for which remaining usage is limited will display the skill count in one of two different colors - one color would represent "you can only use this many of this skill due to a limit on this individual skill", the other would be "you can only use this many of this skill due to a total limit".

This is the bit I don't really understand. Would there be two sets of numbers above talisman-affected skills? Also...

I don't like the idea of having to check twelve different places to see if a requirement is displayed

What twelve places? How complicated is talisman mode proposed to be?

The level preview screen... can't cope with complex talisman requirements or multiple talismans per level. In fact, I'd prefer it if we didn't display talisman requirements here at all, because that forces a clumsy layout on the majority of levels that don't have a talisman.

+1 for this; anything that removes the need to display talisman info on the preview screen is a good thing. I know the specifics of that are best discussed in the new menu design topic, but I think it is worth mentioning here specifically as a reason to implement some form of in-game display.