Lemmings re-make

[ccexplore]

I guess he means the glitch where a OWW interacts with a steel area and neutralize the steel area...or am I wrong?

Oh ok, fortunately that's pretty easy to fix, I can just change the order the game handles setup (have it setup the steel areas after the interactive objects rather than before, so all overlaps win in favor of steel).

On the other hand, that really sounds to me like something that you can easily work around.  Why would you purposely overlap a OWW with steel anyway?

[ccexplore]

I haven't looked at your level, but the best trainer level would be to have the entrance be embedded inside a wall, so that the lemmings come out stuck already. &#A0;Then make climbers the only available skill.

That would qualify as "Lame".

Well, "Just Dig" isn't exactly any more sophisticated than my proposal. : The point is to get the glitch out of the way so the player doesn't have an excuse not to think of it later.

Notice for example that by making the trainer purposely lame, it leaves some thinking room when the glitch comes up later in a less obvious setting.  For example, my trainer level has the advantage that it doesn't alert the player to build repeatedly in order to get stuck.  Not that build-to-get-stuck is hard to figure out or anything, but the less subtlety a trainer level presents, the better.

[ccexplore]

I guess he means the glitch where a OWW interacts with a steel area and neutralize the steel area...or am I wrong?

Oh ok, fortunately that's pretty easy to fix, I can just change the order the game handles setup (have it setup the steel areas after the interactive objects rather than before, so all overlaps win in favor of steel).

On the other hand, that really sounds to me like something that you can easily work around. &#A0;Why would you purposely overlap a OWW with steel anyway?

I think I see how that can happen accidentally: &#A0;you have a steel area right above the OWW interactive object. &#A0;But since the OWW's trigger area is 4 pixels higher than the object itself, this means the bottom 4 pixel rows of the steel is actually still OWW.

This of course can be compensated for by lowering the OWW object by 4 pixels, and then possibly use a fake (z 16 or higher) OWW object to visually fill in the 4-pixel gap between the lowered OWW object and the steel.

---------

Also, it occurred to me that switching the initialization order of steel and interactive object, as suggested by my fix in the quotes, can actually be disastrous: &#A0;it is likely to render inoperable traps that are resting on steel, because the steel could potentially overwrite the trigger area of the trap. &#A0;A less straightforward approach is necessary if I were to fix it.

[ccexplore]

Ahribar's levels look pretty good.

CHEAPO RULES!

And yet, there has been practically no activity on the "Cheapo level list game" thread lately...... :

[ccexplore]

Since there's been talks of not merely leaving in, but actually advertising (as in a trainer level) the climb-thru-terrain glitch, I have resumed and finally finished the work for fixing "Rhapsody in Blue" so that it is (hopefully) immune to that glitch.  The resulting level can be uploaded at

http://it.travisbsd.org/lemmings/lemmingswelt/index.php?cmd=get&file=levelpacks/rhblufix.lvl

No screenshot included because it will look almost identical to the non-fixed version......at least in VGA mode.  I also made the steel plates larger as mentioned a few pages back on this thread.

I do invite people to try to see if they can still manage a backroute using the climb-thru-terrain (plus other glitches) though.  This fix I believe is also immune to Leviathan's backroute involving the steel failure glitch, although it's not immune to other potential backroutes involving the steel failure glitch.  Then again, maybe people will vote away that glitch.

This also brings up a point we should not forget:  while allowing a glitch can enable more levels, it can also disable more levels.  Well, "disable" may be too strong a word, but you know what I mean.  This level for example I'm lucky to even come up with a way around the climb-thru-terrain glitch.  On a different level it would, at best, lead to a very visible fix, and at worst no fix.

[ccexplore]

Anyway, I have made 6 glitch fixes so far:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/nobuglem.zip

I added one more glitch fix, same URL as before if you want to download it.  It's a fix for the lingering blocker field glitch.

[ccexplore]

Maybe we could just keep most of the glitches and make levels like that that teach them. That would be an interesting "fun" set....

Going along that line of thought, here's a possible trainer level for the sliding (aka "giant leap") glitch, if people decided not to take that glitch out:

http://it.travisbsd.org/lemmings/lemmingswelt/index.php?cmd=get&file=levelpacks/bigleap.lvl

Again, not much to it, but it is a trainer level after all.  And if nothing else, it serves as a template from which others can expand the level however they feel like it.

[tseug]

Hahaha! I LOLed at that. ;D The hell set is good for trainer levels.

[ccexplore]

I made an additional change to "Rhapsody in Blue" so that it becomes (I believe) immune to backroutes involving the build-on-thin-air glitch, by making the top platform thinner.  Here's a screenshot:



The file can be downloaded at Mindless's file portal:  http://it.travisbsd.org/lemmings/lemmingswelt/index.php?cmd=get&file=levelpacks/rblufix2.lvl

In my opinion the change doesn't affect the appearance for worse; Ahribar, your thoughts?

[JM]

Would an invisible level be a good idea for this lemmings re-make?

[Proxima]

In my opinion the change doesn't affect the appearance for worse; Ahribar, your thoughts?

I agree.

I've edited the level to avoid the need for a hidden trap, by the way. I decided to use a row of seven traps to keep the appearance as similar as possible. I'll put a screenshot up as soon as I have a chance.

[ccexplore]

I've edited the level to avoid the need for a hidden trap, by the way. I decided to use a row of seven traps to keep the appearance as similar as possible. I'll put a screenshot up as soon as I have a chance.

Hmm, can you point out to me the backroutes in the Cheapo version that leads to the need for this many traps?

Things might be different enough in LemEdit to not require more than 5 traps, but I need to make sure.  Of course, if you actually prefer the appearance of 7 traps over the current appearance, that's fine too.

[Proxima]

With only five traps, there are two backroutes, one Cheapo-specific and one not. In the current version, the hidden sixth trap kills the CustLemm backroute but leaves the Cheapo-specific one in, so in the CustLemm version you could leave the level as it is.... I just think I prefer not to rely on hidden traps.

First backroute: compress all but one lemming, build over first two traps with one bridge, then over third and fourth with another. Release the crowd so that they pass the last trap while it's occupied killing the builder.

Cheapo-specific backroute: compress all but one lemming, have him bash to bypass the first trap, use two builders to get past the other four AND the hidden trap.

[Leviathan]

I think we should also make levels that teach the following tricks:

-Bashing with diggers
-Reverse bash/mining
-Piercing trough terrain with builder (aka razor's edge trick)
-Dig away the edges of steel
-Climb/bomb trick
-Reverse miners with blockers
-Learn that traps have trigger areas (especially water)

So that the player knows what kinds of tricks to except in the harder levels...however off course always put some new tricks in the harder levels too


For the remake I guess the steel failiure glitch (and related) is way too serious to leave in and I guess there's no way how to make it obvious to the player what to do...but let's see what a poll would bring

I think another thing we should avoid is huge loads of straight building for no purpose...I've seen too much levels with that

[Mindless]

I'm a bit confused -- has the purpose of the remake changed to "teaching glitches" or is that something else?