[DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill

[namida]

As the poll has got to 8 votes without a single vote for downwards builder, I'm now popping that one on the "rejected" list.

I'll leave the remaining options open for a little bit longer.

[Simon]

could rather be interpreted as objecting to any new skill at all at this point. If that is your position,

Please don't troll.

Let's all focus on the arguments.

-- Simon

[WillLem]

The Disarmer is a skill that, whilst it basically only has 1 use, actually has a great deal of puzzle potential:...
...It's a great skill. And I'm not just saying that because of the cute little hi-viz vest I gave it. OK, maybe a little...

And this is exactly I was thinking about when I meant we are clapping for every idea now regardless of its actual usefulness and just keep on considering and adding more without thinking about complexity at all.

I agree with you that we need to consider the usefulness of an idea in combination with its potential for over-complicating NeoLemmix - this is is a concern of mine, too, and one of the reasons I'm sitting back from the discussion at the moment. I'm considering what NL felt like to me when I first started using it, and I'm definitely on the side of not wanting to over-complicate things unless the idea is good/useful enough to warrant learning a few extra rules/mechanics.

However, I kinda wish you hadn't used this somewhat jokey remark from me to help illustrate that point, especially because you're ignoring the actual arguments that I made in favour of the Disarmer being a simple but useful skill, which was actually the whole point of that post: the Disarmer is a very simple idea which presents more use-cases than intended, and the silly remark I made shouldn't have been disconnected from this important point in order to try and support an entirely different point.

To re-focus, then, on the main point of my post: the Disarmer makes a highly valuable pickup skill; high release rates compromise its powerfulness (which can make for interesting crowd-control situations); and pre-assigned Disarmers can be placed such that the challenge becomes navigating that lemming to the level's trap before the others get there.

These are valid points, and prove that an idea can be simple and easy to grasp, whilst having a multitude of uses.

[Strato Incendus]

@Simon: I'm sorry, I certainly didn't mean to "troll"... but I don't see how the line you quoted can be interpreted as trolling on my part? Both Dullstar and I understood IchoTolot in a way that he would also be fine with no further skills being added beyond the Jumper, and as far as I can tell, he also confirmed this himself:

This seems more to me like an argument against any further new skills than against the Slider specifically.

I am also totally fine with that to be honest!

Haha, that's what I was talking about in my first post in this thread.

The option is always there, we've got way more than enough content! The jumper is being introduced and yet another object type is being considered.

Of course I know which new skills IchoTolot supports, and that this means he is not against a 20th skill in general. It just seems to me like he would rather have no new skill at all than having the Slider? Meaning: Would you prefer to have the advantage of fewer new skills to learn for new players, than having the Slider for those who want to use it and simply not use it yourself? I'm asking this as a genuine question.

Obviously, nobody is forced to use a new skill if they don't like it. I certainly wouldn't use the Mortar or Spear Thrower that much; I would most likely create an "alibi" level just to try it out once or twice, but that's about it.

So now it bringing very little new to the table is an advantage? You keep on twisting the arguments to be in your favor regardless the direction they are pointing at.

So do you: You criticise the Slider for not bringing enough new things to the table, and at the same time for supposedly being too complex with what it does add.

I actually do think the Slider brings a lot of new stuff to the table, and does so without adding a lot of complexity, because it relies on existing behaviour (splat-height survival, holding on to walls, turning around, transitioning from a wall-state (Climber) to a Shimmier or Jumper).

I think this is the source of our disagreement : What we Slider fans call "new" is what you consider "too complex"; and when you remove those aspects, I can see how the Slider may seem like just a more situational Floater.

Regarding workarounds / emulating a skill with existing features:
- For some skills, you need to engage in a workaround to make them worthwhile. This is what kieranmillar described for the vertical Laser Blaster: A skill that doesn't have a lot of use by itself, you actively need to go out of your way to make it work. I'd also put the Spear Thrower in this category: It's a Stoner at a distance. Breaking falls with it is its natural application. Building bridges with several spears is "actively trying to make them work": If Stoner bridges and staircases are frowned upon, then Spear Thrower bridges aren't much better.
- Then there are skills which you can theoretically replace with a workaround - and this is definitely true for the Slider - but this workaround is a hassle involving many more skills (of different skill types). The more skills you need to provide to make a workaround work, the more easily this workaround can be exploited for backroutes.

For Sliders specifically, any workaround to transition into a Shimmier after a drop is bound to include a Stoner. Stoners are infamous for being one of the most backroute-prone skills out there, because they allow you to go down safely anywhere, not just at the wall where the Slider would be able to do it.

I'd argue Stoners are more problematic in this regard than Floaters. In some cases, the Floater can replace the Slider; but for all the Shimmier combinations, the Stoner will be needed. And the Stoner is a much more dangerous replacement for the Slider when it comes to opening the doors for backroutes.

Likewise, when you try to emulate the Slider turning, you either need to use one-way fields - but those affect all lemmings walking / falling through them, whereas one of the Slider's greatest powers is making him walk into the opposite direction than everyone else - or Walkers. And Walkers once again are a very powerful, if not the most powerful NeoLemmix skill, because they can cancel any other skill and turn around lemmings simply anywhere.

Thus, the Slider would be worth implementing in my book, because if most of the workarounds required to simulate this skill involve the two most backroute-prone skills we have - Stoner and Walker - then I'd rather have a "safe" option to implement those same solutions.

As long as we agree that the solutions the Slider would offer are interesting in principle.

It does indeed seem like, in order to be a Slider fan, you need to love the Shimmier as well. People who don't particularly care that much about the Shimmier might also not find its potential interactions with the Slider (as well as Slider with Climber, Slider with Jumper etc.) that compelling.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying you in particular wouldn't like the Shimmier ; I just state this in a general level. Some people prefer to stick to classic skills, so they might simply not care about the Shimmier all that much, and that is fine and valid as well. I could imagine though that some fans of the classic 8 might find themselves replacing the very limited Floater with Sliders here and there, without actually making use of all the interactions the Sliders would offer with other NeoLemmix skills.

To prevent them from being overwhelmed, new forum members can easily be pointed to less complex packs first that only use a fraction of the existing features - like Lemmings Migration and NepsterLems.

Are you really sure you recommended the right packs there?

You ignored the second part of that statement where I explicitly said that those packs are too difficult for beginners. My argument was that pack difficulty is a much larger obstacle for beginners than a large variety of skills and features. Yet, the people who restrain themselves to classic 8 skills tend to be the most adept puzzle solvers, so the levels they create are on the more challenging side.

What we could use would be an introduction pack that just adds a few more skills, maybe the Jumper and the Walker, or the Jumper and the Shimmier. The rest would be the classic 8. Regarding objects, such a pack could also selectively introduce some - for example teleporters - and use those on several levels, rather than using many different skills and objects, but only once each. This would give the player time to familiarise themselves with e.g. the Jumper, the Shimmier, and teleporters before they move on to the next pack that includes some more stuff.

[Proxima]

You ignored the second part of that statement where I explicitly said that those packs are too difficult for beginners. My argument was that pack difficulty is a much larger obstacle for beginners than a large variety of skills and features.[/b] Yet, the people who restrain themselves to classic 8 skills tend to be the most adept puzzle solvers, so the levels they create are on the more challenging side.

I disagree here; most of the classic-8-skills packs date from when there were just those 8 skills. Several of them are on the easier side as NL packs go and are high on most people's lists of recommendations for new players: GeoffLems, DoveLems, MazuLems, PimoLems, LPI. I would include Migration in this list, although that one is a more recent pack that sticks to the classic 8 through choice.

What we could use would be an introduction pack that just adds a few more skills, maybe the Jumper and the Walker, or the Jumper and the Shimmier. The rest would be the classic 8. Regarding objects, such a pack could also selectively introduce some - for example teleporters - and use those on several levels, rather than using many different skills and objects, but only once each. This would give the player time to familiarise themselves with e.g. the Jumper, the Shimmier, and teleporters before they move on to the next pack that includes some more stuff.

So long as you mean "beginner-level pack" rather than "introduction pack", that's what I'm aiming for with GemLems. It includes the Walker and Jumper along with the classic 8, and all levels select from those 10 skills. (At some points I was considering a different selection of skills, maybe including Shimmier, but now I'm pretty firmly decided.) But it won't have explanatory texts; it just eases players in with gradual increase in complexity, like the original game.

For the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack itself, though, I think you have misunderstood its purpose. It is not meant to be the one-and-only pack new players should play first; it's the pack that you look at when you've reached the stage when you want to familiarise yourself with the full range of features and would appreciate texts stating exactly what they do. To achieve this, it needs to be comprehensive.

[Strato Incendus]

Indeed, I know this is precisely the purpose the introduction pack is supposed to serve. I just wasn't aware of which specific other packs we could point new players to aside from the introduction pack.

But GeoffLems, DoveLems, MazuLems, and PimoLems would certainly work. Though some of these still are comparatively difficult. I think MazuLems would be the easiest one.

The fact that these packs were created when only the classic 8 skills were around might actually be an advantage then - because since they still exist and have been updated to New Formats, the level creators didn't have to artificially limit themselves, yet new players can still start out with only few new elements to learn.

Which means, in turn, that we don't have to be too careful with NeoLemmix as a whole when it comes to complexity. Most of the "greatest" packs of all time will always be too difficult for beginners. If new players need to be slowly eased into NeoLemmix anyway, the total number of skills and objects NeoLemmix as an engine offers seems to be of secondary relevance: It's a step-by-step journey either way.

[IchoTolot]

So do you: You criticise the Slider for not bringing enough new things to the table, and at the same time for supposedly being too complex with what it does add.

Then you clearly still don't understand me then. It does not bring many new things to the table while also being complex to understand with it's combinations possibilities.

(splat-height survival, holding on to walls, turning around, transitioning from a wall-state (Climber) to a Shimmier or Jumper).

The first thing is handled by floaters, updrafts, anti-splat pads, gliders.

The 2nd by the climber to a degree.

The 3rd by a plethora of methods.

The 4th one is a major point for the complexity and does go further the parkour route which I am not very found of.

For Sliders specifically, any workaround to transition into a Shimmier after a drop is bound to include a Stoner.

A little terrain platform platform can also do the trick. And that transition in particular I would call way too parkoury for lemmings.

Likewise, when you try to emulate the Slider turning, you either need to use one-way fields - but those affect all lemmings walking / falling through them, whereas one of the Slider's greatest powers is making him walk into the opposite direction than everyone else - or Walkers. And Walkers once again are a very powerful, if not the most powerful NeoLemmix skill, because they can cancel any other skill and turn around lemmings simply anywhere.

There are way more methods of turning lemmings around than the walker and one-way fields. I even listed a ton of them in an earlier post - speaking about repeating myself.

As long as we agree that the solutions the Slider would offer are interesting in principle.

I highly disagree here.

You ignored the second part of that statement where I explicitly said that those packs are too difficult for beginners. My argument was that pack difficulty is a much larger obstacle for beginners than a large variety of skills and features. Yet, the people who restrain themselves to classic 8 skills tend to be the most adept puzzle solvers, so the levels they create are on the more challenging side.

That does not mean the other side is no obstacle, in contrast it can be quite a substantial one.

Of course I know which new skills IchoTolot supports, and that this means he is not against a 20th skill in general. It just seems to me like he would rather have no new skill at all than having the Slider? Meaning: Would you prefer to have the advantage of fewer new skills to learn for new players, than having the Slider for those who want to use it and simply not use it yourself? I'm asking this as a genuine question.

Yes, I think even no skill is a better option compared to the slider. The advantage of fewer new skills to learn for new players I would say is more important than the mostly redundant use cases the slider provides.
I rather even add a skill that is also partly redundant, but is very easy to use with not as much direct combination methods.

Also, I am still highly in favor for that the new skill is not permanent or movement related. Terrain destruction or creation needs more love.

[Strato Incendus]

Okay, let's address this whole "too parkour" issue for once. I think this goes along with this statement by Simon:

Lemmings is about indirect control. Alter the terrain to shape the path, or you become a blocker to shape other lemmings' paths. The lemming does things that affect other lemmings.

I'd disagree with this premise: Lemmings is about setting up lemmings to alter terrain from the correct spot as much as it is about altering the terrain itself.

Otherwise, levels relying on terrain altering (destructive and constructive skills only) would get very repetitive very quickly, because the worker lemmings creating the path would be Walkers like everyone else. Thus, they couldn't reach any spots that the crowd couldn't reach, which would greatly limit puzzle potential.

The basic ways in which terrain can be modified are already present: Destruction and creation, upward, downward, and horizontal.

My propositions of upward Diggers and downward Builders was met by some with the valid question of whether we actually need to be able to modify terrain in every possible way, because the most important ones - Builders, Platformers, Stackers, and Stoners for construction; Bashers, Miners, Diggers, Fencers, and Bombers for destruction - are already available.

If you think the Slider doesn't add a lot of new things: Why would we need any further terrain-modification skills if these already fulfil 95% of required jobs? Simply because "we haven't had one in a while"? Do we need skills to fulfil a quota, or to inspire level designers to use them in unique and creative ways?

(Actually, the Fencer is younger than the first 8 NeoLemmix skills, so we did have one fairly recently.) And even the Fencer is still being met with objection by some people today (which I don't share, since to me it clearly fills a gap that the Miner and Basher alone can't cover). Maybe we haven't had any new destruction skills ever since because there simply was no need?

The Laser Blaster did come up in past discussions, and was dropped nevertheless in favour of other skills with more design potential. So there would have been ample opportunities to add further destructive skills in the past if people had wanted them, but apparently there were good reasons why movement skills where preferred by the majority.

This idea that parkour levels are somehow bad in general to me seems to be the latest iteration of "pioneer levels are boring / second-class levels", resting on the idea that containing the crowd and having just single worker lemmings create the path makes the level too easy, compared to e.g. flow-control solutions. In turn, I personally regard flow-control levels as fiddly levels with execution difficulty.

If however we can agree that pioneer levels will and should always be a major part of Lemmings, then I think the sky is the limit for how "parkour-like" the path of the pioneers can get: The important part is that the crowd can take a path carved through terrain at the end (because having to assign a bunch of Floaters / Climbers / Jumpers / Shimmiers etc. to every lemming in a crowd can be tedious, of course).

Pioneer levels are simply more interesting when the pioneer(s) can and have to take a different route to set up the path than the crowd taking that path.

I rather even add a skill that is also partly redundant, but is very easy to use with not as much direct combination methods.

Well, I consider "few combination methods" a bad thing, because it isolates the skill in its applicability. I actually think one of the reasons the Floater and Disarmer are so limited is not because they're permanent skills, but because they're so hard to combine with other skills, or to have them interact with objects in interesting ways.

The Glider and Swimmer in contrast interact with updrafts and water, respectively, and those objects by themselves have several applications (breaking falls, getting lemmings up to different places, serving as a trap / gap in case of water).

[namida]

Okay so - while it's only one more vote, I also want to try and get things narrowed down, so, hookshooter is out, tuneller moved into "strong contenders" - although as per some of the discussion (and thinking), I'm merging this overall with the laser-blaster idea. The angle (including maybe vertical) and instantaneous-ness are things that could be discussed as part of the implementation - or if need be, the two can be seperated out again in a later discussion.

Shame about the Hookshooter, I liked that idea more than either of the other remaining willing-to-considers. (Although I can't say I've thought about it much on a usefulness level yet, and so for all I know it might not have survived the in-depth discussion or experimental phases.)

This leaves nothing currently remaining under "willing to consider". Of course, new ideas could still come up; I'm not closing the "initial round" just yet (more just trying to eliminate ideas that have been brought up a while ago but not seeing much interest).



My opinion on the whole parkour thing is - levels shouldn't be deriving their difficulty from finnicky execution of such parts. However, I don't see anything wrong with them simply being options to get a lemming places. The challenge simply needs to come from figuring out that route, not from executing it.

I guess this might be somewhere that NL and Lix differ a bit in philosophy - both agree that the puzzle, not the execution, should be the difficulty; but Lix's ideal philosophy (with some non-conforming elements retained due to tradition / existing content) seems to be "the puzzle is manipulating the terrain, the lixes are a tool for doing so", whereas NeoLemmix's is "the puzzle is manipulating the lemmings, altering the terrain is one thing that can be achieved via this". Obviously, both of these are oversimplifications, but I do get the feeling there's a slight divide along these lines.

[IchoTolot]

Okay, let's address this whole "too parkour" issue for once.

It's already getting pretty parkoury for my taste, I just think it's already enough with the upcoming jumper and we should not replicate the mistakes of L2. Sorry that's just my point of view.

Why would we need any further terrain-modification skills if these already fulfil 95% of required jobs? Simply because "we haven't had one in a while"? Do we need skills to fulfil a quota, or to inspire level designers to use them in unique and creative ways?

That where the whole idea of range came from.

This idea that parkour levels are somehow bad in general to me seems to be the latest iteration of "pioneer levels are boring / second-class levels", resting on the idea that containing the crowd and having just single worker lemmings create the path makes the level too easy, compared to e.g. flow-control solutions. In turn, I personally regard flow-control levels as fiddly levels with execution difficulty.

That is simply wrong.

If however we can agree that pioneer levels will and should always be a major part of Lemmings, then I think the sky is the limit for how "parkour-like" the path of the pioneers can get: The important part is that the crowd can take a path carved through terrain at the end

To think the sky is the limit for everything is bad in general. At some point, especially skills, things just get too overcrowded or simply too much.

This late in NL's development cycle keeping complexity low is a hard but important task to do, many programs just get too overloaded with features over time and don't see the red flags. I don't want see that for NL.

How about we both just think about the situation a few days and try to come up with another skill that addresses the issues we both have, maybe then we will find a better solution for everyone?

[Proxima]

I didn't expect the Hookshooter ever to be a serious contender, so I'm more than happy that it got as far as the last six

[WillLem]

I'm personally very much in favour of the idea of the occasional parkour-style level, anything that brings more variety to the table is a good thing in my book.

Ask yourself, which of these two packs would you rather play:

Pack 1 - VarietyLems

Level 1 - An easy but interesting level with 20 of each skill
Level 2 - A parkour-style level with lots of Climbing, Jumping, Shimmying and Swimming to get around various obstacles
Level 3 - A level where the objective is to get all of the lemmings through a teleporter
Level 4 - A moderately difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 5 - A level with a splat hatch in which a puzzle must be solved to make the fall safe and save every lemming
Level 6 - A multiple-exit level based on floaters and gliders, and how they can get to different places around the level
Level 7 - A very difficult 2-of-each level
Level 8 - An enormous multi-hatch level with a tight time limit and only 1 exit

Pack 2 - SimiLems

Level 1 - A moderately difficult 3-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 2 - A moderately difficult 2-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 3 - A moderately difficult 2-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 4 - A difficult 2-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 5 - A difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 6 - A difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 7 - A very difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 8 - A very difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level

I know which my choice would be, anyway.

[IchoTolot]

Now for another idea:

The (Jet) Dasher

Movement + Range + Construction, while staying quite simple.

The lemming hops on a jet surfboard and dashes straight forward. If he hits a wall during the dash it gets stuck inside of it creating a platform under him in the process.

Debatable alterations:

- Assignable mid air.
- Assign a shimmier/jumper....etc while dashing.
- Maybe even an exploding surfboard
- Assign to a shimmier/jumper

Here we have the spear from the spear thrower that is not precise anymore with the arc.
It also transports a lemming away from the crowd.
We also have range possibilities.
It's nearly always assignable and gets at least a lem away from a crowd.
Easy way to get over gaps.
Debatable combination possibilities.
......

Here we should have something for everyone:

Parkour
Movement
Construction
Quite simple
Not precise

What do you say? 

[namida]

I'm personally very much in favour of the idea of the occasional parkour-style level, anything that brings more variety to the table is a good thing in my book.

Ask yourself, which of these two packs would you rather play:

Pack 1 - VarietyLems

Level 1 - An easy but interesting level with 20 of each skill
Level 2 - A parkour-style level with lots of Climbing, Jumping, Shimmying and Swimming to get around various obstacles
Level 3 - A level where the objective is to get all of the lemmings through a teleporter
Level 4 - A moderately difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 5 - A level with a splat hatch in which a puzzle must be solved to make the fall safe and save every lemming
Level 6 - A multiple-exit level based on floaters and gliders, and how they can get to different places around the level
Level 7 - A very difficult 2-of-each level
Level 8 - An enormous multi-hatch level with a tight time limit and only 1 exit

Pack 2 - SimiLems

Level 1 - A moderately difficult 3-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 2 - A moderately difficult 2-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 3 - A moderately difficult 2-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 4 - A difficult 2-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 5 - A difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 6 - A difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 7 - A very difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 8 - A very difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level

I know which my choice would be, anyway.

You've deliberately set this up in a way that tries to push people towards your preferred option, giving vague, boring explanations on the second pack, while on the first one going into specific detail about puzzle levels too (and even giving them names that try to make the first sound good and the second bad). The ideal pack would be to take most of the first one, then throw out the rubbish ideas like the "huge, multi hatch, one minute time limit" level and replace them with more of the good types that it contains.

On the other hand, if it really came down to "take one of these exactly as it is", then the second is nonetheless the better option. Because chances are with the first - many people would get sick of the scrappy levels and not bother to finish all the good ones, possibly even misjudging some of the good ones as scrappies because it's not always possible to know without solving them whether it's eg. something really finnicky vs a really well hidden clever solution (but they may make assumptions based on the pack's / author's reputation).

[WillLem]

Now for another idea:

The (Jet) Dasher

This is a brilliant idea!

If the surfboard also had a countdown timer and exploded when the timer reaches zero, it would also be a range destruction skill as well. It could be that the timer only starts upon contact with terrain and could be as much as 8 seconds.

Either way, I'm very much in favour of this idea!

The ideal pack would be to take most of the first one, then throw out the rubbish ideas like the "huge, multi hatch, one minute time limit" level and replace them with more of the good types that it contains.

I agree, and you're right - I probably was a bit biased in the way I put that across.

I made my point, though: variety is a good thing. Even if you don't like a particular kind of level, chances are someone else will. A pack containing something for everyone is more likely to attract more people.

On the other hand, if it really came down to "take one of these exactly as it is", then the second is nonetheless the better option.

Not necessarily - this depends entirely on the quality of the levels themselves.

I think it's also fair to point out that in either of the above examples of packs that I've given, the quality of said pack is not determined by the types of levels it contains. There could be a badly designed VarietyLems and an excellently designed SimiLems, and vice versa. I'd be more attracted to the former initially, but would ultimately prefer the latter if it's a higher quality pack.

Obviously, the ideal would be a high-quality VarietyLems!