[DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill

[IchoTolot]

We talked a bit in discord and in the special case of the mortar it could be argued that it is still an active weapon compared to an exploder. So it's not that unlogical for it to have a lemming killing side effect and I would be ok with that.

Making the mortar crater different and maybe a big bigger compared to a bomber could also help to distinguish it further. Maybe also rounder so it is shimmier friendly when firing it at a ceiling.

[Proxima]

Taking a cue from the Worms games, the animation for the crater creation could involve flames lingering in the area for half a second or so. (Incidentally, I believe I might have had a role in adding napalm to Worms; when I was younger, my friends and I wrote to Team 17 with a list of weapon suggestions, including a weapon we described as nuclear, with a similar lingering effect; this may have been reskinned as napalm.)

I would not make the crater shimmier-friendly, because firing into a ceiling to disrupt a shimmier is one of the interesting use cases.

[Strato Incendus]

kieran has outlined his preference for the Mortar very clearly and concisely, I believe; it was easy to follow your logic!

This sparked my interest in looking at your personal top list for Lemmings 2 skills again: "My thoughts on the Lemmings 2 skills"

Interestingly, from the top down, the first skill after those we already have (those being Miner, Builder, Shimmier, Fencer) is the Rock Climber.

I still like the idea of lemmings climbing around 90° corners (transitioning from Shimmiers back into a Climber), and I don't think it would be necessarily harmful to allow both the Shimmier and the Rock Climber to climb up sloped ceilings, since they would be looking in opposite directions, which can be crucial (note that the L2 Shimmier can only go up and down sloped ceilings half as steep as the ones in NeoLemmix, i.e. two pixels in width for every 1 pixel in height).

But if we stick to the previous consensus that the Rock Climber would be too similar to the Climber in NeoLemmix, the next in line on your list was the Glue Pourer.

Aside from distance-effect skills (both constructive and destructive), these "filler-type" skills were probably one of the most iconic sets of skills for me when I first started playing Lemmings 2. namida initially suggested the Sand Pourer here, which was quickly ruled out, but it seemed like the oddest choice of them all to me. The Filler is arguably even weaker, and the Glue Pourer would clearly be most powerful.

The instinctive response would probably be to reject the Glue Pourer on the grounds of it being too similar to the Platformer. Personally, I've always preferred the Glue Pourer to the Platformer in Lemmings 2 - but then again, L2 Platformers gain height, while the Glue Pourer barely does.

In NeoLemmix, where Platformers never gain height, the Glue Pourer would still have the following differences:

- display standard "Filler" behaviour whenever the glue doesn't land on protruding platforms, because then, it doesn't shape into a bridge, but simply fills the gap like a liquid, slowly rising from the bottom to the top
- the pouring lemming remains where he is, rather than moving with the glue right away; so in that sense, I agree with kieran that it could still be regarded as a constructive skill at a distance
- increased speed compared to the Platformer. I was actually surprised to find out on one of kieran's L2 levels that I didn't have to contain the crowd while building a bridge with the Glue Pourer, because the Glue was moving fast enough to keep up with regular Walkers, even a little faster. This would never be possible with the Platformer. Thus, the Glue Pourer would allow for more interesting flow-control puzzles, and also allow teaching flow-control puzzles to beginners more easily - because the crowd isn't in such dire need to be contained.

So I personally would be fine with the Glue Pourer! It would probably be a Stacker vs. Stoner situation, in that Glue Pourer and Platformer are often similar, but different enough in the detail.

For example, while designing my L2-style levels in NeoLemmix, I always wanted to replicate that typical "cover up trap triggers with Platformers" experience, which never works in NeoLemmix,
a) because the trigger areas are higher than in L2, but also
b) because you can't assign Platformers on flat terrain. Thus, you have to artificially increase the altitude around the traps, making it blatantly obvious that you have to platform there, rather than doing anything else. This can also create "pits" around the traps when you don't actually want them to be there, but just regular traps that lemmings can walk through.

Glue Pourers would be interesting ways to deal with traps without resorting to the standard old "build over it" cliché.
They can even handle traps in narrow corridors, i.e. where you can't actually build, jump, or shimmy over them or go beneath them with destructive skills.
They would also provide more opportunities for flow control when it comes to creating bridges, and could handle small gaps efficiently, so that the player no longer needs to waste a bunch of Builders or Platformers on those (especially since the latter will always cause him to turn around after sealing such small gaps), or filling all these single gaps by dropping Stoners into them (waste of time AND lemmings).



However, if the Rock Climber is too similar to the Climber, and the Glue Pourer too similar to the Platformer, both of which seems justified to say - then the next skill in line on your list would also be the Slider.

So let me address your primary criticism against including it in NeoLemmix:

in Neolemmix, the glider is already adequate at providing similar restrictions.

As I'm currently trying to create an L2-style pack within NeoLemmix (Lemmings Hall of Fame), I have tried various tricks to "simulate" existing L2 skills with NeoLemmix skills.

The Glider has become a stand-in for "flyer" skills in combination with updrafts (Ballooner / Parachute / Jet Pack / Icarus Wings / SuperLem / Magic Carpet). The most similar one would probably be the Hang Glider.

The Slider however is not among the skills I would consider similar to the Glider at all! In fact, I tried emulating a Slider with a Glider in the attached level by using one-way fields, and it didn't work: The one-way field will trap the Glider between the wall and its trigger area, not allowing him to move at all (not even down). Instead, I had to use a Floater. (Replay is attached.)

You can try this out for yourself by simply replacing the Floater with a Glider in the attached level. (Requires the experimental build of NeoLemmix that includes the Jumper.)


Counting stars. The one-way arrows on the right are where the Floater is forced into Slider-like behaviour.
Keep in mind that this typical "turning-around" behaviour is enforced by the environment here, i.e. the one-way field. This is a core challenge and also potential of the Slider that the Floater can't emulate. The Floater also can't transition to a Shimmier, and he requires a piece of protruding terrain (above the pipes on the right) to land on. Sliders, in contrast, can drop from an upper platform into a lower tunnel even when their edges are perfectly alligned.

Thus, while I do think comparisons with the Floater are fair when it comes to the Slider, the Glider seems hardly an appropriate comparison:

- They start off looking in different directions: The Glider begins his drops looking forward, the Slider flips around. As established, the question of turning lemmings around just the right number of times is a common trademark of many of the most challenging levels that exist.
- The Glider can sometimes be steered into the same tunnel as a Slider could, yes; but it requires an additional obstacle on the other side of where he falls, and that obstacle needs to be at the exact right height. The Slider, in contrast, needs solid terrain on the same side where he drops.
- The Glider cannot transition into a Shimmier, not even into a Climber that would then allow him to transition into a Shimmier afterwards; he will simply bounce off any wall he touches.
- The Slider needs a straight wall in order to secure safe drops. The Glider doesn't have any such restrictions at all; it's usually more powerful than a Floater, not more restricted. (And the restrictions of the Slider compared to the regular Floater are what make him interesting, so having an even more busted version in the Glider that can fly and travel far distances across lethal gaps goes in the opposite direction.)

Let me praise the Slider in your own words again:

7) Slider - Now here's a skill that's way cooler than the floater. It's heavily terrain-based and genuinely useful, and best of all it is absolutely hilarious in how it messes with the lemming's direction constantly, and often that can end up as a puzzle entirely by itself. The way it combos with the shimmier is just awesome, giving it quite a lot of flexibility. There's all sorts of stuff you can do with this skill and I think it deserves a lot more attention. I wish I'd used it more often.

The Mortar, in contrast, was all the way down on 17th place in your L2-list, behind the Ballooner, Attractor, Magic Carpet, and even behind the already-ruled-out Runner.

[namida]

Rock-Climber and Glue Pourer have both been ruled out - the former due to similarity to the climber, the latter due to implementation difficulty (though similarity to the platformer is a very valid concern too). No point discussing those. Likewise, Slider is already one of the leading candidates, without any particularly strong arguments against it, so it doesn't really need further defending at this point - though it indeed might when it comes down to "time to decide which of the leading candidates actually becomes the one".

n fact, I tried emulating a Slider with a Glider in the attached level by using one-way fields, and it didn't work: The one-way field will trap the Glider between the wall and its trigger area, now allowing him to move at all (not even down). Instead, I had to use a Floater. (Replay is attached.)

This is a known bug that I hope to fix for V12.9.X.

[IchoTolot]

Let me show you this specific level I built myself for the case where the slider would be needed is not a very good argument for it. For every skill you can build a level requiring it.

Also just move the force field to the right so the glider bounces off 1 time and then lands inside your gap in the wall -- fixed with emulated slider.

Thus, while I do think comparisons with the Floater are fair when it comes to the Slider, the Glider seems hardly an appropriate comparison:

And the comparisons you listed here can be emulated with other skills which I already have shown in older posts inside this topic. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

Even from a balance perspective: This is the last skill we will add to NL and we already have by far the most movement skills, I think adding a different type of skill is the way to go. I even would rather put the laster blaster in it than the slider to be honest.

[GigaLem]

And the comparisons you listed here can be emulated with other skills which I already have shown in older posts inside this topic. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

Even from a balance perspective: This is the last skill we will add to NL and we already have by far the most movement skills, I think adding a different type of skill is the way to go. I even would rather put the laster blaster in it than the slider to be honest.

IIRC, Ichotolot explained so many times in this topic (and others like it) about being against the slider.

I'm against the slide too, in fact, i'm very against the inclusion of the slider, I have no desire to make puzzles using the slider when I could use a floater, Why should I use a slider over a floater or glider, I don't want to use something that is way too situational or redundant for a 20th skill. I'm more in favor in the Laser Blaster or even the tunneler because I rather have something more useful and unique. I agree that we have enough movement options in the first place, why do we need something that a floater can do better?

I want something like the Laser Blaster or Tunneler because I want an upwards destructive, and If not those then a downwards constructive skill like a ramper or something.

[Strato Incendus]

This is a known bug that I hope to fix for V12.9.X.

Ah, good to know, thanks for the info!

Let me show you this specific level I built myself for the case where the slider would be needed is not a very good argument for it. For every skill you can build a level requiring it.

That was not what me posting the level was about, I thought that was clear - this was just to show to what extent a Slider can be emulated with the current skills, and to what extent it can't.

The general principle that the Slider can fall onto a platform under his own with perfectly alligned edges (without any surrounding walls or similar that "bounce" him onto the lower platform, like with the Glider) applies to many levels. Protruding terrain pieces on the respective lower platform, as they would be needed now, can often make things too easy - since those allow regular Fallers to land on the lower platform as well. And as we know from "Save me", even tiny pieces of protruding terrain can already be enough to assign Builders / Blockers / anything else that makes getting down on the platform easier for everyone.

I agree that we have enough movement options in the first place,

I don't see the Slider as "yet another movement skill" after Jumper and Shimmier; I see it as another permanent skill, of which we haven't had any new ones since the Disarmer.

why do we need something that a floater can do better?

I've just played some Quest from Kieran 2. Give it a try as well - and you will probably quickly let go of the idea that surviving splat-height drops were the main purpose of the Slider. QFK2 uses it for a bunch of drops where there isn't even anything close to splat height, and those are infinitely more interesting:

Can a Floater turn a lemming around? Transition into a Shimmier? Can a Floater turn a lemming around repeatedly, so that the lemming prevents himself from walking off into a deadly hazard?

There is a Medieval level in QFK2 on which...

Invasion of Normandy

...there is water on the left and you have to build a staircase in the same direction as the water before turning the lemmings around on the staircase and building in the other direction. While the staircase is being built towards the water, you need to prevent the crowd from walking into the water. So you have to make up to 10 lemmings Sliders so that they turn around whe falling from the staircase and walk right back up that staircase again. No splat height at all, no repeated Walker assignments, no boring Blocker solutions. In this level, the Slider doesn't seem like a surrogate Floater at all - it seems like a permanent-skill version of the Walker!

Just like IchoTolot pointed out the Slider's shortcomings countless times and doesn't want to repeat himself, I have emphasized countless times how the Slider is not just a weaker Floater - it is more situational when it comes to that single application, but it is much more versatile than the Floater across situations. The Floater is pretty much a single-purpose skill; the Slider absolutely is not!

Slider is already one of the leading candidates, without any particularly strong arguments against it, so it doesn't really need further defending at this point

Yes, but in recent days / weeks I have mainly been hearing Slider-critical voices, while the Slider fans are, as far as I can tell, still around, but comparatively silent. I don't want the Slider-negative perspective to slowly creep into the collective unconscious simply because it's the only one that keeps getting uttered.

That said, since some people proclaim they expect they would have trouble designing good puzzles for the Slider - and I in turn would have trouble creating clever new solutions with the Mortar or Spear Thrower - that might explain why the Laser Blaster was so popular in the recent poll. It might just turn out to be the lowest common denominator in the end...

If everyone is indeed rather willing to accept the Laser Blaster than "the other side's skill", everyone's second favourite can be the one to win the overall "competition", after all.

[Simon]

I don't see the Slider as "yet another movement skill"

It's yet another movement skill, even when you choose not to focus on that.

Lemmings is about indirect control. Alter the terrain to shape the path, or you become a blocker to shape other lemmings' paths. The lemming does things that affect other lemmings.

I see it as another permanent skill, of which we haven't had any new ones since the Disarmer.

With good reason.

Permanents introduce state that is hard to see, and come with lots of special interaction rules. Have too many permanents, they'll get in each other's scope, and thus the need for rules grows quadratically.

And permanents have a higher chance to turn out the weakest in hindsight. The floater is the weakest skill in Lemmings 1. Runner and floater are the two weakest skills in Lix. The disarmer is the weakest skill in NL.

why do we need something that a floater can do better?

The slider would indeed be better if floater or glider didn't exist.

quickly let go of the idea that surviving splat-height drops were the main purpose of the Slider.

Yes, the slider lands on the ledge below, facing backwards.

The slider overrides normal rules at some future time: The next/every time the lem would fall, the lem slides instead. This breaks mental pathfinding. The skill must bring a ton of design goodness to overcome this massive burden.

The climber overrides turning in the same way. But the climber is so ingenious that it's still worthwhile despite this massive mental breakage. There is nothing like the climber in the game that comes even close.

If everyone is indeed rather willing to accept the Laser Blaster

The L2 upwards laser blaster is weak. Anything interesting with the upwards blaster would get too fiddly.

Instead, combine the Laser Blaster with the desire for the tunneler. Have the Laser Blaster shoot forward at a steep angle:



In front of a wall, it's a tunneler.

It is ranged in that it can shoot over chasms.

It is still mostly vertical in spirit.

-- Simon

[namida]

^ Oooh, I very much like this diagonal laser blaster idea.

[IchoTolot]

The L2 upwards laser blaster is weak. Anything interesting with the upwards blaster would get too fiddly.

Instead, combine the Laser Blaster with the desire for the tunneler. Have the Laser Blaster shoot forward at a steep angle:

That would indeed be a much better version!

Even from my perspective this has potential to compete with the projectile skills.

[DireKrow]

It doesn't make the fencer too redundant? I wasn't a fan of the tunneler for that reason. Two skills that dig diagonally up.

Because it feels like "why use the fencer when the laser blaster does the same thing except way better" except in the specific situation where a shallow angle is absolutely required

[Proxima]

Would it be mean to point out that the angle under a 2:1 slope is actually arctan(2) = 63.435 degrees?

[WillLem]

Can we agree that no skill should result in the deaths of non-zombie lemmings...? It doesn't strike me as much of a "skill" if it's indiscriminatorily lethal - even bombers don't kill other lemmings.

[Simon]

angle under a 2:1 slope is actually arctan(2) = 63.435 degrees?

<_<

Yes, fixed. Thanks!

It doesn't make the fencer too redundant?

Yes, this is a worry.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Can we agree that no skill should result in the deaths of non-zombie lemmings...? It doesn't strike me as much of a "skill" if it's indiscriminatorily lethal - even bombers don't kill other lemmings.

No. Lethality can be an interesting balancing drawback to a skill that would otherwise be too powerful -- obvious case in point being the Stoner.

The Mortar also seems to be a much more interesting skill with lethality than without. L2 gives it the drawback of flinging the lemmings, but we can't have that in NL.