[DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill

[IchoTolot]

There is another big reason not just against the slider itself, but to a group of skills:

The last 2 skills that were added are movement skills. I think it is also time to add to another group again.

Also, the parkour options are really getting out of hand I fear and the specific combinations seem to make the game more complex than it needs to be and it already is complex.

If there are two ways to get the same job done, but one of them offers even just one more possibility, which are you going to favour?

The answer to this is not as obvious as you think here. Possibility is not everything and in some cases can even be harmful and overcomplicate things. The actions need to make sense and fit into the game on top of that.


To the entirety of the workaround debate:

I think you miss my core point here. Of course a workaround is more prone to backroutes and a slider would help with that. But why waste this last opportunity on a skill that just makes some interactions more backroute prone and on top of that doesn't really add anything completely new to the table?

Regarding the workarounds for proposed behaviours, one thing I have to say is that the more complex they get, the more they scream "backroute potential!" to me...

Exactly! The more skills I have to provide to enable a workaround - especially when it comes to skills as powerful and backroute-prone as Walkers and Stoners, which is the case in all of my examples for substituting the Slider - the more likely this is to invite backroutes indeed.

And of course if you add more and more to the discussed slider interaction the workaround must add more as well. Of course both get more complex.

Of course the designer can adapt everything. But let me phrase this the other way round: The absence of the Slider forces the designer to adapt the terrain in a way he/she might not want to. If a certain skill behaviour is not possible in the first place and you keep adapting the terrain to make up for that, then at what point would we just say this is a completely different solution than intended?

The modifications I proposed here are not extreme and it is impossible to predict what everydisgner might want/ not want to. Sometimes certain ideas need to be dropped as well and we can't account for everything. This loss is inevitable in any case.

It's interseting that WillLem called those two things a good case for the Spear Thrower, because both sound like horribly precise execution difficulty to me. The spear would probably be just one pixel in diameter and a couple of pixels in length. Meaning, if you want to make a gap narrow enough for just a spear to be thrown through it, it would have to be a 1-pixel gap (well, if that doesn't sound like fun). But I think you are referring to the gap the spear is supposed to lead across here. So let's say that's 12 or 16 pixels. How deep does the spear stick in the terrain it lands in? If this is just one pixel too far, there will be a gap remaining on the side from which the spear was thrown.

You have the wrong picture in your head here:

The gap the spear would close would be more in the range of a 16 pixel width and the exceution would not be very precise. The spear either comes from below and hits the other side of the gap in an angle or it comes from ground level hit the other side in an more shap angle (cover maybe around 8 pixels here) and deals with the 3rd thrird of a gap.

These cases will try to visualise this

Spear from above

-------I --  I
         I
         I    \I

Spear from below

-----I  I
      I   
       --I

Still, the question remains: How do you get a spear to span across two chunks of terrain of equal height (like a Platformer bridge)? The spear would have to be thrown over the lemming's shoulder, i.e. from a higher altitude than the lemming's feet. Does that mean it always requires an additional Builder or Jumper to get on top of a "bridge" created by the Spear Thrower in the first place?

You called it being a combination skill a plus point for the slider earlier:

Because for some or even many of us, interactions between skills are one of the main driving points of puzzles - and the Slider has a lot of options, "attachment points" were it can easily connect with all the other skills.

Now it's a weak point.

The goal of the spear is not even to cover a large gap. It should not just be a more complicated platformer. It is more useful for short gaps and that fast or in combinations with other skills.


A raged skill either interacts with a higher altitude in this case it hits at the arc's peak.

At ground level where something like a 45 degree angle would exits and it could be used to get height. In this case no height gaining skills are required.

Or to a level below at a sharper angle. In this case no height gaining skills are required. The crowd could drop down onto it.

whereas the Slider in its core application is of similar power as the Floater, and then some.

You you say it yourself: The core is mostly redundant!

However, I'm generally a bit surprised about your several remarks here that almost seem to imply you like the Spear Thrower for... execution difficulty?

I still don't see the execution difficulty you are talking about all the time. None of my proposed interactions are very precise apart from the spear on spear case and for that we can get skill shadows. It's not really much different as a builder in terms of precision or a bomber in the bazooka case.

Those things (speed-based solutions and proper positioning) are precisely my main objection against all the projectile skills from Lemmings 2: The Tribes! The Thrower, the Spear Thrower, the Bazooker, the Mortar

I think you missunderstood proper positioning here. It's not the precision of the throw, just getting a lemming on the right area of the map.

This is precisely why in the "suggest your own 10-skill panel" thread ("Defining the new classic 10 skills" was kind of re-purposed to that recently), I dropped the Floater in favour of the Glider - because the Glider can accomplish the same thing as a Floater (when it comes to saving a lemming from a single lethal drop) if you just assign it late enough.

A Glider can only "backfire" due to its diagonal trajectory once it has already been assigned, by taking a lemming too far and leaving the player no option to delay the opening of the parachute - but then again, the same can be said for the Floater: If you need to survive a straight drop first, and at the next drop, there is a gap or water there so that you would need a Glider instead, the Floater can blow up in the player's face just as much as the Glider can.

In general, I'd even argue that the better a skill gets one specific job done - and only that job - the less puzzle potential it has. Namely, the Floater, the Disarmer, and possibly the Swimmer. But the Swimmer still has the most puzzle potential of these three, and even that skill has been called obsolete by Proxima!

But since I think we established that the number of different things you can do with the Floater is more limited, my argument is that the Floater is the one more worthy of being "replaced" by other skills.

If we would design an engine from scratch I would also propose some skill candidates ready for a cull. The floater would be on it. But we live in the reality that they are already implemented for a long time and much content relies on it and the existing content is the heart of the game.

The slider would be on it as well!

Basically, the only difference is:
- IchoTolot suggests to use workarounds with other skills to replace the Slider
- I suggest using the Slider to create workarounds that can replace Floaters and Gliders

And there lies the problem with the slider!

Again: For a fresh engine where floaters and glider would not exist your point for the slider would be stronger.

[Strato Incendus]

But why waste this last opportunity on a skill that just makes some interactions more backroute prone and on top of that doesn't really add anything completely new to the table?

Because adding something completely new can also open a new can of worms. When the purpose of adding the final skill is to close NeoLemmix. The final skill should be like a lid that fits the already existing barrel - not stack another open barrel on top of the existing one. It should naturally fit in with what we already have while still providing something new. But ideally, it should not leave level designers craving for more of whatever the 20th skill introduces.

And modifying terrain at a distance is such a new ground. Why should there be a Spear Thrower, but not a Bazooker or Mortar? Or a Laser Blaster? Or even the Archer, which overall is much more versatile than the Spear Thrower, but simply takes a lot more effort to code?

Hence, I also think that order of release of skills is not particularly relevant here:

The last 2 skills that were added are movement skills. I think it is also time to add to another group again.

Since this is going to be the final version of NeoLemmix, a couple of months after the implementation of the final skill, this "sequencing" will be less of an issue than simply the question what types of tools we have at our disposal in total. Especially new players joining next year will not know in which order Fencer, Shimmier, Jumper and 20th skill were implemented.

You called it being a combination skill a plus point for the slider earlier:

[. . .]

Now it's a weak point.

No, I said the number of skills a given skill can interact with is the crucial factor.

A skill that only interacts with one other skill AND is only good in combination with that other skill - such as the Runner being essentially dependent on the Jumper, without modifying the behaviour of any other skill, in contrast to the Turbo Lemming - is not worthwhile on its own. Meaning, if a Spear Thrower can only create a bridge that lemmings can reliably walk onto through the interaction of the Builder specifically, that would be an argument not in its favour. I don't think the Spear Thrower is actually that limited, to be clear - but indeed I still have trouble imagining the bridging applications for the Spear Thrower in my head.

In contrast, a skill that interacts with several other skills can indeed be worthwhile. The extreme case would be the Cloner, which interacts with all non-lethal skills. The Slider can interact with Jumpers, Climbers, Shimmiers, Bombers/Stoners (by slipping into the gap / landing on the Stoner with already the correct position towards the wall to bash into that wall), and thus by extension also with Bashers/Miners/Fencers in new ways.

You you say it yourself: The core is mostly redundant!

No, the core is weaker than the Floater, because it's more situational. The Slider is less overpowered in its core domain than the Floater, thereby reducing the "boringness" that arises from such a single-issue skill (extreme case: Disarmer). At the same time, it's not just a "strictly worse" Floater, like the Kayaker is a strictly worse Swimmer. This is important because I guess nobody would voluntarily use an objectively worse skill. Instead, the Slider makes up for his weaknesses in the Floater-specific application by adding in a whole bunch of new behaviours and interactions with several other skills. That is the part I was describing with "and then some".

I think you missunderstood proper positioning here. It's not the precision of the throw, just getting a lemming on the right area of the map.

Thank you for clarifying this! I'm still not sure I understand your various ideas for "spear from above" and "spear from below". How would this work without the player controlling the angle at which the spear is thrown? Which would require Archer-like double-assignments, and namida has already ruled out those.

Would you suggest a parabolic trajectory for the spear, like for the Jumper? Or as the Mortar would also have it?

[IchoTolot]

Because adding something completely new can also open a new can of worms. When the purpose of adding the final skill is to close NeoLemmix. The final skill should be like a lid that fits the already existing barrel - not stack another open barrel on top of the existing one. It should naturally fit in with what we already have while still providing something new. But ideally, it should not leave level designers craving for more of whatever the 20th skill introduces.

And modifying terrain at a distance is such a new ground. Why should there be a Spear Thrower, but not a Bazooker or Mortar? Or a Laser Blaster? Or even the Archer, which overall is much more versatile than the Spear Thrower, but simply takes a lot more effort to code?

That's why I suggested the thrower/bazooka again. It's not a new can of worms, but adds something we lack. The range is new, but it's just a projectile, with always the same arc, that interacts with the first thing it hits, plain and simple.

I'm totally open for the spearer or bazooka/mortar discussion and I am open for both options. I think the laser blaster provides less in terms of use cases, but even that I would prefer over the slider.
Even if a new skill is introduced that provides something interesting and new I am open for it, but I just think the slider isn't it.

Since this is going to be the final version of NeoLemmix, a couple of months after the implementation of the final skill, this "sequencing" will be less of an issue than simply the question what types of tools we have at our disposal in total. Especially new players joining next year will not know in which order Fencer, Shimmier, Jumper and 20th skill were implemented.

My point there rather was:

Also, the parkour options are really getting out of hand I fear and the specific combinations seem to make the game more complex than it needs to be and it already is complex.

I think the whole movement/parkour thing really gets out of hand. I think the jumper adds enough and we should not overdo it.

A skill that only interacts with one other skill AND is only good in combination with that other skill - such as the Runner being essentially dependent on the Jumper, without modifying the behaviour of any other skill, in contrast to the Turbo Lemming - is not worthwhile on its own. Meaning, if a Spear Thrower can only create a bridge that lemmings can reliably walk onto through the interaction of the Builder specifically, that would be an argument not in its favour. I don't think the Spear Thrower is actually that limited, to be clear - but indeed I still have trouble imagining the bridging applications for the Spear Thrower in my head.

I think me explaining all the interactions again and try to draw them in with symbols in here would be overkill.

A test version would be needed at this point for visualisation.

In contrast, a skill that interacts with several other skills can indeed be worthwhile. The extreme case would be the Cloner, which interacts with all non-lethal skills. The Slider can interact with Jumpers, Climbers, Shimmiers, Bombers/Stoners (by slipping into the gap / landing on the Stoner with already the correct position towards the wall to bash into that wall), and thus by extension also with Bashers/Miners/Fencers in new ways.

But all these interactions are again pretty similar to things we already have.

You just set your eye on the pure possibilities here, but not on the actual gain itself.

No, the core is weaker than the Floater, because it's more situational. The Slider is less overpowered in its core domain than the Floater, thereby reducing the "boringness" that arises from such a single-issue skill (extreme case: Disarmer). At the same time, it's not just a "strictly worse" Floater, like the Kayaker is a strictly worse Swimmer. This is important because I guess nobody would voluntarily use an objectively worse skill. Instead, the Slider makes up for his weaknesses in the Floater-specific application by adding in a whole bunch of new behaviours and interactions with several other skills. That is the part I was describing with "and then some".

So you are advertising a skill that has a weaker core than the floater and depends entirely on other skills to be less boring than a floater. On top of that, for the last skill especially, that does not get me in, sorry.

Thank you for clarifying this! I'm still not sure I understand your various ideas for "spear from above" and "spear from below". How would this work without the player controlling the angle at which the spear is thrown? Which would require Archer-like double-assignments, and namida has already ruled out those.

Would you suggest a parabolic trajectory for the spear, like for the Jumper? Or as the Mortar would also have it?

No double assignment! You assign the skill and the lemming throws/shoots immidietly and the projectile arc begins. For the spear the angle in which the projectile hits terrain determines the shape of the added terrain.
The only thing the player needs to change to aim the skill the the position of the thrower - so where the arc begins.
Just imagine a standard throw trajectory if you would throw a stone off a cliff. First you gain heigth then fall down again while the width gain begomes lower and lower changing the angle in the process.
So basically a jumper that does not simply fall straight down after the arc, but still has some width gain left that slowly becomes less over time.

If a spear hits terrain above it will most likely hit at the peak of the arc and create a mostly horizontal terrain piece.
If a spear hits terrain on the same level the angle will most likely be something around 45 degree and creates something like a little upwards ramp for lemmings.
If a spear hits terrain below it will hit at a more extreme angle and create a more steep piece of terrain with less width. The angle will also be a bit more extreme if the spear hits at the very start of the arc.

[Proxima]

It might be a good idea to draw up a list of the skills in their respective categories and see which list has the least skills on it (I would do that, but I'm not sure I'd be the best person to do this coz I'm not 100% sure which skills fit into which category).

I don't feel up to replying to Strato and Icho's long posts and fully unpacking their arguments and deciding how I feel about them, but this at least I can do

Constructive: Builder, Platformer, Stacker, Stoner (4)
Destructive: Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer, Bomber (5)
Movement: Walker, Jumper, Shimmier, Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer (7)
Other:
* Blocker could be considered a non-movement skill, and affects the movement of other lemmings.
* Disarmer is the only skill that interacts directly with traps, putting it in a category of its own.
* Cloner is a unique skill that can duplicate a constructive, destructive or movement skill.

[Strato Incendus]

I think at this point people have simply become emotionally attached to whatever skill they fancy the most: Basically, I see three factions:

- the Runner / Turbo-Lemming side
- the Slider side
- IchoTolot with the Spear Thrower (if anyone else has this as their primary choice, please correct me?)

Honestly, I probably could be convinced of the Spear Thrower in terms of a compromise - which would be the Roper. Since the Roper's main weakness is the limitation of the length of his rope, there is a point in L2 where the rope tears and the hook at its other end flies as a projectile of its own.

This projectile could still be used for most of the uses IchoTolot proposed for the Spear Thrower - like breaking a fall in a way similar to a Stoner, but at a distance, or shooting this hook through a tunnel created by destructive skills etc - while the rope itself could be used in even more various ways than the spear (especially because it would also be a little longer than the spear).

The problem is that the Roper, at least in its L2 form, requires a double assignment like the Archer, which namida has already ruled out.

So the question would be whether something similar can be implemented with just a single assignment.

@IchoTolot: I think you would agree that the Roper is more versatile than the Spear Thrower in general? The Roper can accomplish all the things you want, but makes creating walkable slopes and bridges a little easier.

[WillLem]

Constructive: Builder, Platformer, Stacker, Stoner (4)
Destructive: Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer, Bomber (5)
Movement: Walker, Jumper, Shimmier, Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer (7)
Other:
* Blocker could be considered a non-movement skill, and affects the movement of other lemmings.
* Disarmer is the only skill that interacts directly with traps, putting it in a category of its own.
* Cloner is a unique skill that can duplicate a constructive, destructive or movement skill.

Hmmm. In that case maybe another constructive skill would be in order... either that or another "other"....

[IchoTolot]

The roper is interesting indeed, but it is really extremely powerful. Like EXTREMELY. If you have a roper all other construction skills are inferior if there is terrain around and this can be very big trouble.

I played through L2 and the roper is by far the most useful skill out there. I think it's is too powerful, that's also a reason I went with the spear/bazooka route and did not try to find a single assignment method for the roper.

[ccexplore]

I think many of the skills proposed are potentially good additions and it's too bad that we are forced to pick one.

I've entirely skipped over Icho and Strato's lengthy feud, but I will say this:  back when both geoo and I were active in creating custom Lemmings 2 levels, both of us did end up using the spearer and thrower skills quite a bit.  I know at least 3 of my 6 or 7 levels did end up using the spearer, and I think I also used thrower in one level but admittedly in a somewhat less traditional way.  I recall at least 1 geoo level using the spearer and 1 using the thrower, and he made around 6-8 levels as well IIRC.

To do it right, you don't want to use those skills like you would with builders, in particular while you could require repeated, multiple-times usage of the skill to build up a larger path or structure, I would argue that's genrally a very suboptimal use of those kinds of skills; leave that kind of thing to your regular old builders instead.  The action-at-a-distance is really what makes those skills unique compared to your regular construction skills.  It makes it so that when you are required to use the skill, you probably cannot use your hero right at the spot to do it, you instead need someone a bit farther back--maybe it's someone from the crowd, or maybe it's another lemming you have to release later to trail behind the hero.  Or maybe it's just your hero but at an earlier time in the level, meaning you have to plan ahead and anticipate the need to throw, and make the assignment accordingly.  Or maybe you do need to temporarily steer your hero back instead of ahead, in order to get back to the position needed to throw.  You get the idea.

The projectile skills also naturally allow you to place terrain into locations that are otherwise completely unreachable to a lemming, or otherwise takes too much effort (eg. skills) to reach.  This in turn allows you to start opening up new pathways in the level that cannot otherwise be opened any other way, or cannot be opened without using too many other skills.  You wouldn't want to be forced to build an entire path out of these throwing skills alone, but you can often start with the throwing skills to start opening up a path, that you can then perhaps send lemmings over to extend it via more traditional skills to complete the path.

I think it's easy to overlook the spearer and thrower skills if you go purely by the official Lemmings 2 levels; as far as I can remember, almost no levels there ever made good use of those skills, in fact some arguably makes "bad" use of them (eg. that Highland level with the word "throw" in the title).  Then again, I don't think any of the official Lemmings 2 levels make good use of skills like slider either, so basically, think a little deeper than what you see in Lemmings 2 when evaluating these potential new skils.

Again, I'm unable to make a choice between say slider and spearer; each seems interesting and worthwhile in their own way and I'd rather not have to pick at all, but well, you can't always get what you want.

[Dullstar]

EDIT: I'm leaving this post for historical reasons, but I am no longer opposed to the Slider. I do still stand by the points about topics other than the Slider.



I've mostly been staying out of this discussion so far, but now that there's been some debate back and forth on various skills, I'd like to share a thought of mine.

I know 20 skills seems like a nice, round number to have. But it's not like this number is ever seen in game, since the skill limit is lower. I think future skill additions should be evaluated on whether or not they are good additions to the game, rather than how many skills would be in the game as a result of the outcome of the decision regarding whether or not to add the skill - though, of course, the existing skills need to be considered! More skills = more stuff to remember, so we should consider what the new skill would bring to the table while also considering what we already have.

I am not a fan of the slider. I feel it overlaps too much with the floater - there isn't a lot of puzzle potential that it would create that isn't already possible with the existing skills, and it would become another interaction to remember when considering things like how it should interact with jumpers and climbers. You could reduce the overlap by making it non-permanent, but when considering which skills are permanent and which ones aren't, it really doesn't feel like it should be non-permanent. Its similarity to the floater would also make me question why not have the Rock Climber, which would basically be a climber that can handle overhangs similar to what shimmiers can handle as well as having this synergy with the shimmier that was rejected for the regular climber (for the record, I think the current shimmier implementation was the right call, since the regular climber can't handle overhangs). I'm not really sure the rock climber would add much to the game, but the reason I bring it up is that I don't think it would make sense to have three different non-terrain altering ways to get lemmings down from a ledge that's too high, but only one non-terrain altering way to get them up. One extra way can provide something for lemming sorting puzzles to work, but the glider already gives us a way to do that going down, so what does the slider really bring to the table? One of the other proposed movement-based skills, the runner, is something that I think has more abuse potential (I really, really don't like precise timing levels) than puzzle potential (as there are already many, many ways to separate lemmings from crowds). It exists in Lix, but Lix has multiplayer, which is where I think the runner has the most potential. Even without the implication that it will be the last new skill ever, I do not feel prepared to endorse either of these skills as future additions to the game.

I think of the skills that have been suggested, the projectile skills have the most potential. It takes enough other skills to replicate the functionality that it creates lots of backroute potential when working around the fact they don't exist -  if the puzzle can even be made to work without them. But I don't think it makes sense to implement a ranged construction skill, but not a ranged destructive skill (or vice versa). That would bring us to 21 skills, which isn't as nice of a number as 20, but... does that really matter?

[Strato Incendus]

So, I'm just rewatching IchoTolot's Let's Play of Lemmings 2, looking for applications of the Spearer. Even though the Spearer appeared on the skill panel, it wasn't used so far (Beach, Outdoor, and Egyptian tribe at the moment). Though IchoTolot did mention repeatedly in that Let's Play how he really doesn't like the Slider .

why not have the Rock Climber, which would basically be a climber that can handle overhangs similar to what shimmiers can handle as well as having this synergy with the shimmier that was rejected for the regular climber

As I said earlier, in Lemmings 2 this "flipping around the corner" behaviour is typical of the Shimmier and independent of whether the lemming is a Rock Climber or just a regular Climber - as long as he can climb one way or the other, the Shimmier will flip around the corner and transition back into a (Rock) Climber. He will only fall down if he is just a Shimmier (i.e. got to the ceiling by jumping, rather than by dangling and then being assigned a Shimmier). Dangling from the ceiling is something only the Rock Climber can do; the regular Climber will just fall down immediately when hitting a sloped or flat ceiling.

The Shimmier however can't go up or down sloped ceilings in Lemmings 2; he will immediately start dangling and fall down as well. Sloped ceilings are exclusively reserved for the Rock Climber in Lemmings 2, meaning he will always look the other way compared to the Shimmier. Since we didn't want to have that close overlap between Climber and Rock Climber, the Shimmier was powered up in NeoLemmix in this regard, as to make the Rock Climber even more redundant.

I do think Climber and Rock Climber are more closely related than Slider and Floater though; Glider and Floater are much more comparable, I'd say, yet we still have both .

but the reason I bring it up is that I don't think it would make sense to have three different non-terrain altering ways to get lemmings down from a ledge that's too high, but only one non-terrain altering way to get them up.

Well, you could argue that both the Jumper and the Shimmier are non-terrain-altering ways to get lemmings up... non-terrain-altering is definitely true, and the "getting up" happens through the fact that both skills jump. Of course, a lot of times, a Shimmier requires a Climber to even get to the ceiling, but even when he doesn't, it's still an upward-moving skill. Of course, once he is attached to the ceiling, that ceiling can take him up or down, depending on its overall shape. But he's still traveling at a higher altitude than he was before.

But if you want more upward-moving skills: I think nobody has brought up the Super Lem (the L2 one, not ONML) yet?

It's the only flying skill from L2 that doesn't involve the annoying fan tool, and I agree with IchoTolot's statement from the LP that it's easy enough to use. It would also add something completely new, because it allows a lemming to move freely, but always straight to the position the courser is currently placed. By pausing and hitting play again, even in L2 you can control this skill quite nicely - with framestepping and rewinding in NeoLemmix, of course it would be even less of a problem.

One of the other proposed movement-based skills, the runner, is something that I think has more abuse potential (I really, really don't like precise timing levels) than puzzle potential (as there are already many, many ways to separate lemmings from crowds). It exists in Lix, but Lix has multiplayer, which is where I think the runner has the most potential. Even without the implication that it will be the last new skill ever, I do not feel prepared to endorse either of these skills as future additions to the game.

Thanks for bringing up this distinction! Indeed, I can imagine that when competing with other players, speed by itself can be a key factor. In a single-player game such as NeoLemmix, however, I agree with you that I don't see much use for the Runner aside from adding execution difficulty through timing-based solutions - while players who like these kinds of solutions still have the Jumper to isolate a pioneer lemming from a free-flowing crowd.

I think of the skills that have been suggested, the projectile skills have the most potential. It takes enough other skills to replicate the functionality that it creates lots of backroute potential when working around the fact they don't exist -  if the puzzle can even be made to work without them. But I don't think it makes sense to implement a ranged construction skill, but not a ranged destructive skill (or vice versa). That would bring us to 21 skills, which isn't as nice of a number as 20, but... does that really matter?

I think many of the skills proposed are potentially good additions and it's too bad that we are forced to pick one.

I think it would be helpful if namida defined again what he means by "final version of NeoLemmix".

Obviously, we all get that at some point he's tired of adding new stuff to the game and wanting to wrap up his work on it. But since the code is open source and freely available, I guess nobody could stop another interested user with skills in C / C+ / C++ / C# (I forgot which of these New-Formats NeoLemmix was written in again ) from picking up after namida and maybe adding further skills in the future.

Even if this would count as a separate thing from "official and finalised NeoLemmix" (which could remain in a state where it always has 20 skills), a separate engine could start with the latest version of the NeoLemmix source code, and then simply work its way from there.

I already brought up the idea of Nepster maybe returning after the Jumper has been implemented... although I remember Nepster more for removing stuff from NeoLemmix than for adding much... But we need to remember that the Shimmier was still implemented by him.



Anyhow, if there's a general interest in the community in having further skills some time in the far future, who knows? Maybe someone else with knowledge in these programming languages will join the community... we could even try advertising NeoLemmix deliberately on platforms for these programming languages... and that someone might say:

"Do you know what's an even better number of skills to have than 20? 24! Because that's three sets of standard-eight!"

And then we can add the Slider, the Spearer, the Laser Blaster for upward digging, and the Roper for downward building...

But as I said, right now, such considerations would be "little finger - whole arm" .


And no, I'm of course not calling for any other programmers to "steal namida's baby" and take over . Quite the opposite - we have already seen namida giving his baby NeoLemmix into Nepster's part-time foster care, at a time when namida himself didn't want to be involved in NeoLemmix development all that much; until he took over again when Nepster went on a hiatus.

Who says something like that can't happen again?

[Proxima]

I think it would be helpful if namida defined again what he means by "final version of NeoLemmix".

Namida answered that here:

Reaching a final version isn't about implementing, or even considering, every idea anyone can possibly think of. It's about deciding at some point "this is enough, this is going to be NL's final list of features, and no more additions will happen'.

Of course, as it's open-source, someone else could take over, either under the NeoLemmix name (if the community chooses to accept their new versions) or a fork under a new name, similar to how NeoLemmix itself forked from Lemmix.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks, I had just read up on again myself! So that does indeed suggest namida isn't going to go out of his way to stop another motivated user to found "RadoLemmix" (naming it after the next noble gas in line ) with many more skills.

In general, I'm glad to see several people in the community don't object to an abundance of different skills in principle. As I said earlier, while I do think there are a multitude of problems with Lemmings 2 - no replay feature, not even a quick restart in the Amiga version, combined with extreme execution difficulty in terms of the fan, the chain, cannons, catapults, tumbler physics etc. - the large selection of skills isn't one of them. That is, as long as proper thought is put into every single one of them, and they are introduced slowly enough so that people can come up with decent ideas for each of them.

Clearly, this latter part did not happen during the development of L2, and functionally equivalent skills to existing ones (Club Basher, Scooper, Stomper are all clones of the Basher, Miner, and Digger, respectively) were introduced for what seems to have been just for the sake of it. If we can avoid this type of redundancy and only ever introduce any new skill after careful consideration for its novel applications, I think the total number of skills NeoLemmix can or should have is secondary.

After all, nobody forces level designers to make use of all the skills in existence in every single one of their packs. In fact, we've already found out that there seems to be a certain "bias" for just the good old classic 8 skills, i.e. a voluntary restriction of level designers to use just those throughout several entire packs.

Therefore, I don't see a particular danger of "overload" for New Players; they could simply be pointed to easier and less complex packs. This is vital anyway, since whether a pack has few different skill types or not is utterly irrelevant for its complexity if that pack happens to be called NepsterLems.



Btw, Here's a challenge for our "spirte master" WillLem: Do you want to "implement" the Club Basher, Scooper, and Stomper into NeoLemmix? Simply make a new sprite set where the Club Basher sprite is used for the Basher, the Scooper sprite is used for the Miner, and the Stomper sprite is used for the Digger! Kind of like the Lix digger has a drill, i.e. a different tool, but still does the same thing. We would just have to hope that each of these animations has an equal number of frames as the original... and the path it carves out in the terrain would obviously have to be identical (the "real" Scooper creates a slightly different path than a Miner in L2, but the applications are functionally equivalent).

[namida]

We would just have to hope that each of these animations has an equal number of frames as the original...

There's a bit more freedom than this. On a technical level, the animation can usually have any number of frames. Off the top of my head, the only special case so far is the WIP Jumper - which must have at least 3 (but is still free to have more than 3). That aside, in some cases it's pointless to have more - a shrugger or reacher, for example, only remains in that state for a certain number of frames in any case, so while you could have less (and it would loop), there'd be no point in having more because they wouldn't be seen.

In practice, of course, it might look weird if the new animation isn't the same number of frames, or at least a multiple or integer divisor of it.

But this is a bit off-topic for this topic.

Also, I'd like to remind everyone: I have already said the Slider is under consideration. Arguments against it in this topic aren't really worthwhile at this point. Save that for a later discussion where we try to pick between the best candidates.

I do see Icho's point about that it's worthwhile considering projectile constructive skills, so I've added that to the list of stuff that I'm willing to consider - though labelling it as "under consideration" would need to see more community support, which I am fully aware may not have come yet because prior to this it could essentially be ruled out under "Any other L2 skills" (which was my intention, but Icho's posts have caused me to rethink this). So if you do like such an idea - and this doesn't have to be specifically "I like it more than the Slider", just "I think it's worth giving serious consideration to" - then speak up now.

[Proxima]

I do see Icho's point about that it's worthwhile considering projectile constructive skills, so I've added that to the list of stuff that I'm willing to consider - though labelling it as "under consideration" would need to see more community support, which I am fully aware may not have come yet because prior to this it could essentially be ruled out under "Any other L2 skills" (which was my intention, but Icho's posts have caused me to rethink this). So if you do like such an idea - and this doesn't have to be specifically "I like it more than the Slider", just "I think it's worth giving serious consideration to" - then speak up now.

Okay On my side, I have doubts about the Spear-thrower because, if I remember rightly, the position you throw from could determine the angle the spear ends up having when it lands, so it could get very fiddly even with the help of skill shadows. Still, I do see the benefit of being able to add terrain from a distance, and especially adding a platform to stop fallers halfway down a wall, allowing them to interact with the wall. I think, compared to my original list, I would put Spear-thrower (or other ranged constructive) as my third choice, after slider and ranged destructive.

[ccexplore]

So, I'm just rewatching IchoTolot's Let's Play of Lemmings 2, looking for applications of the Spearer. Even though the Spearer appeared on the skill panel, it wasn't used so far (Beach, Outdoor, and Egyptian tribe at the moment). Though IchoTolot did mention repeatedly in that Let's Play how he really doesn't like the Slider .

I said it before in one of my posts, but worth repeating:  don't evaluate a Lemmings 2 skill based purely on how it was used in the official levels.  The official levels arguably don't really do justice to many of the skills added to Lemmings 2.

It saddens me a little that so many people seem to think of the slider merely as yet another way to get a lemming safely down a fatal fall, a kind of floater alternative apparently.  If level authors seem unable to use the skill better than just that, then maybe it's not worth introducing, not because the skill is bad but because it seems like maybe no one will make good use of it anyway, apparently.