[DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill

[Proxima]

Sure, if you have a hatch above an abyss and need a Glider to even get the level started, the Resetter would place the lemming at the point where the Glider landed. But such levels tend not to be too popular, because any type of level involving a deadly drop right out of the hatch usually has some arbitrary hassle of saving the crowd as fast as possible before the actual puzzle itself can begin. By all means, make crowd control and -containment part of the challenge, but doing so by using a deadly drop right out of the hatch is somewhat of a cheap way to go about it, I think .

Really now? I don't remember any previous discussion suggesting that splat hatches are unpopular. The only time I remember someone complaining about them (in general as opposed to a specific level) was you, in the "Immediate turn-offs" thread, and both namida and I responded by defending this type of level (while admitting that some examples in the original games are bad).

"Poor Wee Creatures" is an excellent example of a splat hatch level done right: saving the crowd as fast as possible isn't "arbitrary hassle", it is (most of) the puzzle; you only get one floater so you are not kept busy assigning many floaters while he does his work. I get the impression it's generally regarded as one of the best Original Lemmings levels (for instance, in "Top 5, Bottom 5" it made three people's Top 5 lists).

Sometimes, you can get a similar-seeming puzzle by having the hatch drop lemmings onto terrain above a fatal drop ("Grounded" from LPI, for example), but this tends to be quite a different type of level because you can usually contain the lemmings while having a worker build a landing platform. I think we would lose something without the possibility of splat hatch levels -- this is why the floater just edged onto my "top 10 skills".

I should make a topic in Level Design to ask what people think about splat hatch levels

[WillLem]

I love a good splat hatch level! As long as there are plenty of builders and floaters.

[Strato Incendus]

Don't get me wrong, I made some splat-hatch levels myself, but then it's precisely as you guys said: Catching the crowd is already part of the solution. Poor Wee Creatures is the only level in original Lemmings where I agree this is useful; Bitter Lemming / With a twist of Lemming, please and Steel works, meanwhile, merely delay the actual puzzle with this start. As you will see in the thread Proxima linked to, namida indeed agreed with me that With a twist of Lemming, please is the worst offender in this regard.

Meaning, simply giving the player a bunch of Builders and Floaters is precisely NOT how it should be done - at least not in NeoLemmix, where you have much more elegant and less repetitive ways (e.g. send a Glider towards a wall and bomb him to make a dent, then send a second Glider / clone the first one twice to get another one into this direction, then have him build a single staircase or platform from there that serves as a splatform).

And I've seen similarly "useless" splat hatches on custom levels. There was one particular brick level at the end of the first rank of DoveLems ("Cisterns, Chains and Bricks"), where you just have to build a random staircase under the hatch to prevent everyone from splatting at the start. The actual puzzle however is getting a Climber up a wall on the left or right and then navigating downward cleverly through a maze. This is the actual puzzle part, and it has nothing to do with the splat hatch at the beginning. It's just unnecessary delay of a solution to an otherwise very interesting level.

[WillLem]

N.B. One of the mods might want to move this splat-hatch part of the thread to level design...?

Steel works, meanwhile, merely delay the actual puzzle with this start.

Steel Works is one of my favourite examples of a splat-hatch level. I'd probably assert that the opening section of this level is the actual puzzle, being followed as it is by an outright builder-fest. The fact that you only have 5 floaters to help you deal with 2 consecutive steel splat drops makes it particularly challenging, especially when played on an Amiga.

I'd also say that even the builder-fest that Steel Works presents is a worthy enough challenge of a Mayhem level - the narrow tunnel at the end is difficult to make your way up without the help of skill shadows and the like.

Of the other splat-hatch levels in the original game, I'd probably have to agree that Bitter Lemming and Twist of Lemming are a bit pointless and are more of a prelude to the level's actual puzzle. However, again - modern engines do take it somewhat out of context. Having to repeatedly assign floaters whilst being busy elsewhere was way more of a challenge on the platforms that Lemmings was originally released for. This is even more of a challenge, and perhaps more relevant, in the not-yet-mentioned Pillars of Hercules, which takes it to the next level by only providing enough floaters for a perfect solution.

Meaning, simply giving the player a bunch of Builders and Floaters is precisely NOT how it should be done

Haha! I know, I was being ironic - I'm well aware of people's general disdain for splat-hatch/builder/floater parties.

Incidentally, Lemminas contains an affectionate remix of Twist of Lemming which makes the splat-hatch opening much more interesting and NeoLemmix-relevant (even if I say so myself ). I get to be proud of that level though, because all of the forum's best solvers agree it's a decent challenge. To be fair, it's a level that happened purely by itself as a result of me playing the original using only the NeoLemmix skills.

[Strato Incendus]

Just a quick question to revive this debate: If namida's plan is indeed to release this 20th and final skill with the next odd-number version of NeoLemmix after the 12.9 which introduces the Jumper, this would be version 12.11 in November, if my memory serves me right.

How soon would we have to decide on a skill to keep up with this very ambitious schedule? Considering that not only programming and sprite-crafting, but also extensive physics discussions would go along with that.

So far, it seems to me that all skills still in the race are Lemmings 2: The Tribes skills? Meaning Spear Thrower, Slider, Laser Blaster, Bazooker / Mortar, Runner.

As I said before, I would also support the Archer or Roper as a more versatile version of the Spear Thrower, but we would have to find a way to make those skills work without the double-assignments that namida has already ruled out.

[namida]

All I've stated is that 12.11 is the earliest this skill could happen. I haven't ruled out that it will be later.

[WillLem]

What about The Creator - a lemming that creates a temporary bit of terrain that has a countdown timer, and when that timer reaches zero the terrain either explodes, leaving a bomber-sized hole, or turns into another lemming.

Or The SuperSwimmer - a lemming that can swim in midair, and leaves a trail of terrain behind them.

[Strato Incendus]

What about The Creator - a lemming that creates a temporary bit of terrain that has a countdown timer, and when that timer reaches zero the terrain either explodes, leaving a bomber-sized hole, or turns into another lemming.

Do you seriously think this will fly with the people who voted for the removal of radiation and slowfreeze? (And the removal of timed bombers much earlier...)

Or The SuperSwimmer - a lemming that can swim in midair, and leaves a trail of terrain behind them.

Given that Swimmers move horizontally, what would be the difference to a Platformer?

[namida]

Do you seriously think this will fly with the people who voted for the removal of radiation and slowfreeze? (And the removal of timed bombers much earlier...)

Actually, I can see why this might be considered acceptable even to people who didn't like radiation / slowfreeze / timed bombers - the terrain isn't permanent, but it still gets created exactly where you assign the skill. You don't have to mess around with "where do I start the assignment, so that the lemming will be in the right place when it ends?", which was the biggest argument against all of those. I'm not particularly keen on this idea, but I wouldn't immediately dismiss it as "not a good fit" in the same way timed bombers / etc are.

The SuperSwimmer, on the other hand, is as Strato says - essentially just an alternate-animation platformer (or builder, if they move upwards too), and thus not going to happen.

[Proxima]

The Creator reminds me a little bit of one of the skills from The Light of Horderland, a Lemmings-like game I designed on paper (and it never got further than that). The skill in question, the Dynamiter, placed a stick of dynamite at its current location, which would explode five seconds later.

I don't think it's a terrible idea, but mostly it's just a non-fatal bomber that can't be used while falling, and the time delay doesn't seem to add enough to make it worth considering. A similar effect (destroying terrain while the worker is elsewhere) can also be achieved with the Bazooker/Mortar, and those skills are more versatile, so they are strictly superior in my opinion.

[WillLem]

What makes The Creator (as an idea) different from the Bomber is that it creates terrain for 5 seconds: this could be used for getting lemmings down from a height as well, or even as a temporary blocker which then destroys the surrounding terrain.

I suppose you could just assign a blocker and then bomb them, but then that costs a lemming.

It's just an idea at the moment, really I'm riffing on the thought: what could be both constructive and destructive? Or, in the case of the SuperSwimmer idea, what could be both a movement skill and a construction skill?

I also like the thought that there's still something new, and useful, that didn't even exist in Lemmings 2...

[Strato Incendus]

Given that WillLem already suggested the terrain explodes and leaves behind a Bomber-like crater, Proxima's name "Dynamiter" seems much more fitting than "Creator", indeed!

That said, I agree that it would be another case of "non-fatal alternative to a fatal skill", which is something namida ruled out in the starting post (probably in reference to the Lightsaberer, but in my book, this is still just the same idea in new clothing).

I also like the thought that there's still something new, and useful, that didn't even exist in Lemmings 2...

Yes, probably, but unless it's something like upward Digging or downward Building, i.e. a variation of something you can already do in NeoLemmix (even though you technically can't do either of those in L2, since both the Twister and Laser Blaster act differently than an actual upward Digger, and the Roper is very limited in its range, even though it can also go downward), I see the danger here of people coming up with random stuff that doesn't fit in organically with any of the skills we have so far - just for the sake of having something "new and different".

Ironically, L2 is a good demonstration of what happens when people come up with new skills for the sake of it. At the same time, in doing so, L2 is pretty likely to already have tested most of the new ground that can be discovered in a game like Lemmings.



The L2 skills that are still in the race at this point are all connected to existing mechanics in some way, while still offering something new:

- the Slider is reminiscent of the Floater in its main application, but also has similarities to the Climber in other regards, and interacts extremely well with Jumpers and Shimmiers, by extension also with Bombers and Stoners

- the Bazooker / Mortar creates a crater like a Bomber, just at a distance

- the Spear Thrower is somewhere in between Builder, Platformer, and Stoner, but again at a distance

- the Runner is in between a Walker and a Jumper (and therefore has the least new options to offer, I think)


To illustrate this latter point, I have attached the level "Besser du rennst" (=You better run!) from my in-development, L2-inspired pack Lemmings Hall of Fame (and the replay showing the intended solution). This is a typical application of the Runner as it is being used in Lemmings 2: The Tribes - and the attached level is meant to show that this can be accomplished in a perfectly fine way by just using the Jumper on its own (which you usually need on the skill panel to interact with Runners anyway).

Solution

The pioneer has to be separated from the ground and take the route on the left (which would also offer a good opportunity for using a Slider on the wall on the left, I would just have to make the gap a little narrower then, so that a Jumper could get all the way across ). He needs to reach the one-way wall and bash through it before the crowd arrives, lest they would turn around and fall into the water. The pioneer will then of course walk towards the water, but he can comfortably seal it up with a Builder.

Granted, as we've established for the other skills, L2 may not have used the Runner to its full potential. But in contrast to the Laser Blaster, Slider, Bazooker / Mortar, and Spear Thrower, we actually have custom-level user data for the Runner, due to its presence in Lix.

People have pointed out how it can be useful in Multiplayer levels, but in single-player games like L2 or NeoLemmix, a level like the attached on is usually the main application of the Runner.


Maybe this is enough of a justification to drop the Runner from the list, and continue narrowing it down?

I do want to open a separate thread for the discussion of possible physics of a (Spear) Thrower skill, though. I think this should be done separately from a discussion about a destructive range skill, like the Mortar / Bazooker, because for the time being, we need to assume we're only going to get either of the two (range construction OR range destruction).

[namida]

Some updates to the consideration list:

- I've moved both kinds of projectile skills to the "strong contenders" list
- I've noted the Rocketer (suggested by Crane in another topic) and the Creator (with the caveat it would need a better name) as a "willing to consider" - I will note that neither seemed very popular so they're not likely to happen, though
- I've moved Runner to "ruled out", the more I think about it / read discussion about it the more I'm convinced that, even if it has "coolness" appeal, I don't believe it has enough puzzle potential (outside of finnicky execution levels) to really compete with most of the other ideas being raised

I will also reiterate (or state for the first time - I'm not sure if I actually posted this, or just thought it) that I may be willing to consider multiple skills if there's considerable overlap in their implementation, while also not having too much overlap in functionality. A projectile constructive skill + a projectile destructive skill that share the same arc, and just have different visuals + different effects on impact, is a perfect example of such. I'd still need to be convinced both are worthwhile though - this is only leniency for the "implementation difficulty" side of the decision, not the whole decision.

[Strato Incendus]

Ah, so the Laser Blaster explicitly doesn't count as "projectile destruction", only as "range destruction", I guess? That would make sense.

I'm having a bit of a hard time seing how the Mortar (shooting diagonally upwards) would be more useful than the Laser Blaster, given that it still only creates a tiny crater, compared to the long tunnel the Laser Blaster can create.

I guess you can shoot a dent into a wall so that a Climber can climb into it, rather than having to waste a second Climber to bomb that dent into the wall... but the difference between the two seems very minor: If you need to get a lemming to that position anyway (=the Climber who climbs into the Bomber / Mortar hole), then the range of the skill doesn't really give you any advantage. It's only a difference between getting one vs. two Climbers up the same wall.

The Bazooker with his straight horizontal trajectory seems a lot easier to navigate. Since we don't have tumbler physics, it could also be used at close distance without that annoying knockback - which would basically give us the Flame Thrower / WillLem's Lightsaberer in the same breath (=producing a non-lethal, Bomber-size crater right in front of the Lemming).

Then again, if we think of the Bazooker as similar to Flame Thrower and Lightsaberer, neither of those two skills would have added anything new.

The range of course is the new part, but given the type of destruction Mortar and Bazooker create (=a Bomber crater), they still seem a bit like yet another "non-lethal version of a lethal skill we already have".

The most curious use I can imagine would be to free a Blocker at a distance, by shooting away the ground beneath his feet. Meaning, there would be a Bomber crater under the Blocker without the Blocker actually dying!

But unfortunately, most of the time, this would require the projectile to fly downwards (i.e. pass through the Blocker himself and then hit the ground beneath him). So it could probably only be achieved with the parabolic curve of the Mortar's projectile. And using this upwards-shooting skill to make holes in the ground is precisely what you have to do on that L2 Beach level ("Sand Blaster") that kind of spoilt both the Bazooker and the Mortar for me...

[namida]

Alright, let's try and get rid of some of the "willing to consider" ones. I've put a poll up with most of these options (the exceptions are those that, at this stage, are too general to really treat as a single idea to vote for or against, at least in the context of pitting against other suggestions directly), 3 votes allowed per user. How many are kept under consideration vs ruled out is not something I'm deciding in advance, it will depend how the results fall as well as perhaps some further thought about my own views on the skills.

When voting, please think more about the general idea than the exact details / visuals / names proposed so far. For example, if you like the idea of what the Creator does, but think "it should have a different name and the terrain should last longer than the current proposal", vote for it, because those kind of finer details will likely be gone over very intensively before the skill even makes it to a final vote-off, let alone gets implemented.

Note that Slider and the projectile skills are already under "strong contenders" so aren't part of this poll.