Downward construction vs. upward destruction

[Strato Incendus]

Because there's been talk of a potential 20th skill as the final one to be added to NeoLemmix after the Jumper, before the game reaches its "end state", I think we should discuss first any possible "gaps" in the game, i.e. things we still might need, rather than fancy new things we might just want to experiment with, but that aren't strictly necessary.

Two "needs" seem to come to mind again and again - two things you can't do in NeoLemmix so far, or any other Lemmings game, for that matter:
- downward Building
- upward Digging

However, since there's only going to be one more skill, as far as I understood namida, we will probably have to take our pick.

If we had to choose - and actually, we kind of have to - would we rather have downward Building or upward Digging?

Or, if we can't have both, would we prefer to have neither, and instead go with something completely different?



Let's elaborate a little on these two options:

1) Downward Building
In contrast to destructive skills, which can already move down (Miner, Digger) and up (Fencer) in at least some fashion, there is absolutely no way to perform a constructive skill with a downward trajectory (unless you want to consider the Stoner, but extended "Stoner staircases" are usually frowned upon ). This raises the question: Do we want this downward construction to be diagonal or vertical?

• 1a) Diagonal downward Building
  Envision a landscape with open space in the shape of a reversed L: A tunnel at the top of the level, then a gap with a vertical drop, and another tunnel at the bottom of the level. Above that bottom tunnel is a solid wall that lemmings can't get through.
  The question is now: From where does the crowd come?
  - If they're in the bottom tunnel, it's hard to prevent the lemmings from simply building up to the top tunnel. At least if the level provides Builders - but most levels do, given that it's such a crucial skill. It's hard to avoid backroutes in this regard. A downward Builder, in contrast, would be useless to the crowd at the bottom - instead forcing the player to send a pioneer upwards, e.g. by climbing / shimmying, to then build the staircase from the top downward.
  - If the crowd is in the top tunnel, there is no way for them to get down without sending a pioneer first. Most likely a Shimmier or a Glider, because there's no other way to get across the gap. Unless that gap is filled with water at the bottom, then a Swimmer would also work. A downward Builder, in contrast, would allow to create such a bridge from the upper tunnel where the crowd is coming from - allowing for different solutions than the standard-pioneer approach, e.g. timing- and flow-control-based solutions (which are generally considered more "advanced" than crowd containment + pioneer).
  Skills that could fulfil this purpose: L2 Roper, or a skill that is indeed identical to the Builder, just moving in the opposite direction. I think the most popular name suggested for the latter was "Sloper".
  
  
• 1b) Vertical downward Building (=downward Stacking)
  This would be the constructive equivalent of the Digger, allowing to create Climber-friendly walls from the top. For example at a rough cliff that can't be climbed from below, or downward from a platform where there is a gap below, i.e. not terrain to hold on to in the first place.
  Indeed, the Roper would also be a fitting application for this, letting down a vertical rope that lemmings from below can hold onto. Think of "Rapunzel, let down your hair". However, if it's just a straight vertical wall, this would limit the skill severely, basically only being useful in conjunction with Climbers - or, potentially, you could have the lemming performing the skill move slightly forwards after each assignment of the downward Stacker, to create a downward "step ladder" that could also be used to break falls. After all, that's also what Stacker towers built from below look like - they're never a single straight wall. As such, it's not possible for a lemming to splat by falling off a Stacker tower, as long as he falls down on the correct side.
  There's an easy way though to make such a vertical rope accessible to regular Walkers, i.e. useful without Climbers:
  - The single "bricks" would be 1 pixel in width, 6 pixels in height, so that regular Walkers could "ascend" from below.
  - If the idea of "bricks" being let down from above seems unfitting, we could alternatively have the lemming let down a rope, where each of these 6-pixel pieces is connected to the next one by a knot.
  - Then, the question would be whether the lemming lets down the rope from above while still remaining at the top himself, or whether he moves down along with his rope.
  The result would be a "rapid-ascension staircase", much like what you get when you put several of the vertical chains from the ONML Brick tileset next to each other: The lemmings keep performing the "ascender" motion and move up the chain / rope quickly, rather than slowly walking up the slope of a Builder staircase. Keep in mind though that most skills can't be assigned to lemmings while they're performing the "ascender" animation, so this difference might actually become relevant!
  

2) Upward Digging
Creating a vertical shaft from below is a mainstay in Lemmings 2: The Tribes, by use of the Laser Blaster. At the same time, this has also been one of the main criticisms of this skill: That it basically always serves just the same single purpose: Sending a pioneer ahead, then laser-blasting the crowd out from below. As said above, pioneer-levels are often considered easier than flow-control levels. Therefore, a skill that only serves such a purpose could be labelled a "beginner skill", which, much like e.g. the Disarmer, rarely appears on the higher ranks of any given pack.
However, I do think the Laser Blaster was not used to its full potential in Lemmings 2. In fact, the game probably didn't even scratch the surface of what can be done with this. So let's consider him first:

• 2a) Laser Blaster
  - For example, rather than always using the upward Digger at the end of a level, it could be used at the beginning, to create a path for a Climber in otherwise unevenly-shaped terrain. This way, as far as pioneer-levels alone are concerned, it wouldn't just be something that the pioneer can do at the end to free the crowd, but also something that could be done to help isolate the pioneer in the first place. There already are a bunch of advanced levels where non-Climber-friendly walls have to be made Climber-friendly first, which is the main challenge of the level, before the pioneer can even begin his mission.
  - The ability to affect terrain at a distance would be completely unique to the Laser Blaster, if it was going to be the final skill added to NeoLemmix. For example, you could use a Laser Blaster to make a dent or gap into a ceiling to make a Shimmier fall down at a certain location, when he would otherwise continue onwards (and e.g. go into a trap). This is an interesting interaction that actually could have been used in Lemmings 2, but never was, at least to my knowledge.
  
  
• 2b) Magno Booter / Twister / Gravity Reversal
  This type of upward Digging would stick to the established tradition that terrain can't be affected at a distance, and that a lemming always moves along with whatever terrain he's affecting.
  - The Magno Booter walks upside down along walls and ceilings. As such, he has overlap with Climbers and Shimmiers. In L2, it is not possible to assign skills to Magno Booters, though, severely limiting their range of application.
  - In contrast, in Lemmings Revolution, the Gravity-Reversal pad changes the falling behaviour of lemmings completely as soon as they walk into it. While walking upside down, they can perform any skill, i.e. also including Miner, Builder etc.
  - The Twister can be moved in any direction in L2 via the fan. In our case, we would limit this to straight vertical movement. This would be a drastic change compared to L2, though, because in L2, the Twister stops as soon as he has no solid ground under his feet, like any other destructive skill. This skill by itself, i.e. without additional support in form of Magno Booters or Gravity Reversal, would certainly have to jump first from its default Walker state, in order to get to the terrain he's supposed to affect. This would make the initial jump very similar, if not identical, to the one performed by the Shimmier.
  One could even say the "Reacher" animation would become a general form of behaviour, similar to the "Hoister" (the motion a Climber performs when pulling himself onto a ledge, which is now also performed by Shimmiers when hitting a ledge with their feet).
  The Twister would then jump, and if there is terrain within its reach, where the Shimmier would start shimmying, the Twister would instead start moving upwards, removing terrain like a digger until he either hits steel or there is no terrain left. Then he moves a sufficient number of pixels into whatever direction he's facing, so that he doesn't fall down his own shaft again. This would effectively allow the Twister to "climb through terrain", like the "crawler" animation in L2, where lemmings can climb out of terrain they got stuck in. The difference though is that this behaviour would be limited to Twister skill assignment, and therefore not as easily abusable for backroutes as the crawler behaviour in L2.
  

Finally, a general word on Gravity Reversal:

namida has uttered interest before in creating a Gravity Reversal pad - meaning: an object, not a skill - analogous to the one from Lemmings Revolution. Not only would this mean the spot for the final 20th skill would remain vacant for something else - it is also the only thing I can imagine that would fill both the gap of downward Building, downward Stacking, and upward Digging at the same time (together with Magno Boots that allow skill assignment, thanks to WillLem! ) Because every skill can be performed regularly by lemmings walking upside-down, that would instantly give us access to all of these inversions that we're currently lacking.

There would be certain differences in the details, of course. For example, a Builder moving downwards because he was gravity-reversed would be positioned below his own staircase, whereas a genuine downward Builder skill would still have the lemming on top of whatever he is building.
This means that the gravity-reversed Builder would bump his head once he reaches the terrain at the ground (which acts like a ceiling for him). Meaning, lemmings walking upright on the bottom won't be able to walk up that staircase unless they complete the staircase from the other side with a regular Builder.
Also, there wouldn't be the option of limiting the almighty Builder by providing only downward Builders on the skill panel instead - because the skill used for building upwards and downwards would still be the same: The normal Builder. Thus, even if you intend for a certain section of a level to be completed by a gravity-reversed Builder, there's no guarantee a witty player won't figure out a way to do that same part by just using normal Builders from the other side, if you're not careful.

Still, I think there is a powerful case to be made for the stance "let's solve both of these issues - downward construction and upward destruction - via this object, not via a skill, and use the free slot to have something completely different as the 20th and final skill".


I just want to make sure we consider how we want to address these "gaps" in level design, regarding the current lack of downward constructive skills and vertically-upward destructive skills, before we come up with anything fancy just for the sake of having a 20th skill.

Therefore, this thread should be specifically downward construction and upward destruction. If you have ideas for a 20th skill that refer to anything else, please post them in the appropriate general skill suggestion threads instead.

[Proxima]

At the bottom of the page, next to "Reply", there should be "Add poll". I don't see it here because it's not my topic, but I do see the button when I view a topic I started.

My vote remains "Neither". Now that I've had more time to think it over, I don't like my previous Freezer idea very much; it is too similar to the Stoner; its ability to start a constructive or destructive skill in mid-air can be mimicked by using a Stoner to create a platform, and the lost lemming and having to use a replacement worker actually makes doing this with a Stoner much more interesting.

But I don't think NeoLemmix needs the ability to build diagonally downwards, or dig straight upwards, just because those are currently lacking. It's true that if you list the possibilities in a matrix, there are those gaps. But there are obvious reasons why those possibilities lead to skills that are not very versatile, and if we have to have a 20th skill, I would rather keep looking for something unique rather than yet another variant on the continuous-limited-builder or the continuous-digger.

A downward builder is limited in application because it has to start on the edge of terrain, like the Platformer. However, the Builder is so overpowered that it's good the Platformer exists, for cases where you want to allow construction but want to make it harder for the player to ascend terrain. The only reason to add a downward builder would be for cases where a Platformer won't do the job -- either because you need the ramp for other lemmings to walk up, or because you need to lose height to avoid a splat. But in both these cases, being without downward builders can be an interesting limitation to work around; having them doesn't seem to make those situations more interesting as puzzles.

For example, you could use a Laser Blaster to make a dent or gap into a ceiling to make a Shimmier fall down at a certain location, when he would otherwise continue onwards

I'll pause and note that this is a very good point, just so that you know I'm not rejecting everything you say

However, it does make me think: if we were to add a skill that allows terrain removal at a distance, making that skill the Laser Blaster is a handicap in that it can only remove terrain directly upwards. Sure, that means it has two uses -- cutting through a wall like a digger, or making a dent for shimmiers -- but it cannot, for example, make a dent in a vertical wall for climbers. So something that fires an explosive projectile could be more interesting (albeit probably awkward to code, and we'd have to think about how the projectile interacts with other objects it collides with, and there would inevitably be some very nasty and fiddly levels based around exploiting those interactions).

But most of all, I think the gaps in the matrix do not need to be filled just because they are there. It's more interesting that skills have restrictions and limitations that the player needs to work around -- for example, if you need to get down a long fall, finding a way to send a lemming down to build back up, rather than just assigning a downward builder.

[WillLem]

Magno-boots but with the ability to perform skills would solve all of the above, plus create other level design opportunities. I think that's the best idea I've encountered so far in this discussion, certainly better than any of the ideas I had!

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for the explanation, Proxima! I'm used to the poll feature being a part of typing the opening post. I've added one now.

Note that it's technically possible to say "the 20th skill should be something completely different, because downward building and upward digging should be accomplished via gravity reversal". This would mean: Because those two things are going to be enabled by a new type of object, not a new type of skill, that frees up space for something completely different.

However, this would double the expectations on namida, because it would mean we take it as a given that he implements gravity reversal pads at some point, plus another skill.

Hence, if you do think that downward building and upward digging are generally important options to have in the game, but would like this to be achieved via gravity reversal pads (so that the 20th skill can be something different), you should probably still vote for the option of Magno Boots being the 20th skill, at least for now.

This way we can see how many people even want downward building and/or upward digging in the first place.

If namida then says he has enough capacities to program gravity reversal objects (which I think involves a lot more messing around with general game physics, rather than just restricting this behaviour to single lemmings who get assigned the Magno Booter skill), we can still make up our minds on what else we could use the 20th skill slot for. If we decide that gravity reversal pads make Magno Boots superfluous, that is - which is not necessarily self-evident. They're closely related, like Stacker and Stoner, but not identical.

Magno-boots but with the ability to perform skills would solve all of the above, plus create other level design opportunities.

Thanks for pointing this out; indeed I forgot to clarify this in the starting post!

Just keep in mind that the Magno Booter, just like a gravity-reversed lemming, would bump his head on the ground when building downwards, because he's dangling from his own staircase. So the crowd from below would have to close the remaining gap to actually connect to that staircase and make use of it.

[WillLem]

Magno-boots but with the ability to perform skills would solve all of the above, plus create other level design opportunities.

Thanks for pointing this out; indeed I forgot to clarify this in the starting post!

Just keep in mind that the Magno Booter, just like a gravity-reversed lemming, would bump his head on the ground when building downwards, because he's dangling from his own staircase. So the crowd from below would have to close the remaining gap to actually connect to that staircase and make use of it.

Good! Even more puzzle potential!

[namida]

Okay, so I'll have to dash that one now - magno-booters would be a nightmare to code, even without the "can perform other skills in any direction" aspect (and if they can do the latter, that would be nearly a full rewrite of every skill), so will not be happening.

Gravity reversal won't be happening either. Given my decision that I want to start wrapping things up for NeoLemmix, it's too major a feature to consider introducing at this stage. I will stress that this comes from the consideration of "how much work would it be to implement?", and that if this were purely a discussion of "would this be a nice idea?", I'd be on the "yes" side.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for clarifying this, namida! As a consequence, I've deleted the option for Magno Booters / Gravity Reversal and reset the vote count to zero, so that people who favoured that option (including myself) can make up their mind again, knowing now that we will either have only downward building, or upward digging, or neither.

Personally, I would probably gravitate towards upward digging - because I kind of would like to see another L2 skill added to NeoLemmix, i.e. either the Twister or the iconic Laser Blaster.

Downward building, in contrast, doesn't really exist in L2 either, aside from the Roper, which is quite limited in the distance it can cover, but otherwise also quite overpowered because it can go into any direction.

[WillLem]

I tried playing the first few levels of Fun with my laptop screen inverted (Press Ctrl+Alt+Down if you want to try it - the mouse movement takes some getting used to!): fun indeed, but probably not worth the difficult coding to implement as a game feature.